Advice on a second tuba

[Koukalaka]

I've been thinking about getting a second tuba, and I'm looking for some advice from all of you experienced players. Please excuse my long-winded personal story, but here goes.

I am not at all a professional musician, and won't ever be. I'm a pretty good pianist and play the piano nearly every day, and "perform" almost every weekend as the accompanist for my church choir. But for me it's never going to be a job, and I'm never going to be auditioning for a professional group...it's just what I love to do.

When my daughter started band a few years ago, I got out my old trumpet from middle school and messed around a bit. I realized that I never really liked playing high brass. Cruising around the internet, I realized for the first time (can't believe I never learned this as a kid) that I could play euphonium/baritone in treble clef without learning new fingerings. I bought a used 3-valve Jupiter euphonium on Craigslist and fell in love with it.

A year or so later, I sold the Jupiter and bought a Mack Brass compensating 4-valve euphonium, and man, I couldn't believe what I'd been missing. If I'd had this horn as a kid, I would never have quit playing brass. I started to think about getting a tuba too, but I was only playing TC euphonium and had not had much luck attempting BC fingerings. I can READ either clef easily...as a pianist this has been second nature since I was about 8 years old. But even with Dave's transposing technique on here, I just couldn't break through. When I see an F in bass clef or treble clef, I think F, and my fingers think "first valve", et cetera. So--I bought a Mack Brass CC tuba.

The CC has been great. I can play in either clef just fine without messing with my brain to transpose. It's been challenging to develop good intonation, but I'm getting better and I think I have enough confidence to start playing solos at church with the tuba as well as the euphonium. To my pleasant surprise, I can swap back and forth with my euphonium without a problem--I actually seem to do better on a given horn when I've been playing the other for a bit. My low register on euphonium is better after playing tuba, and high register on tuba is better after playing euphonium...no surprise, I guess.

Anyway...the CC is fun to play, but not fun to transport. I love to play it at church when I go in each week to practice, but I don't often take it for that reason. I have been thinking about getting a second tuba that's smaller. This can't be expensive. If I really stretch my budget (and wait for a while) I could get the Wessex tornister CC, or the Wessex "Bambino" compensating Eb horn. (I think I could manage transposition with Eb a lot better). Or I could spend half as much and get a Wessex "Elf" 3-valve Eb tuba right now.

I know that a 3-valve Eb would have its limitations. I wouldn't be able to play the low register as well, and I know there are intonation issues there. But this tuba would not replace my CC. When I play solos at church on Sundays, I'd still use the CC if the part is low enough to need it, and if someday I am able to join a community band or ensemble, I'd most likely use the CC for that as well.

So. My question for all of you is this. If you've read this far and get my situation, do you think that buying a tuba like the "Elf" would be a good option? This is designed as a beginner tuba, but I know there are adults who play it too. I'm interested in something small that will let me basically practice more easily and in more settings. Even if this horn wouldn't be a good substitute for my CC in an ensemble performance setting, that would be okay as long as I enjoy playing it for practice and as long as playing it would strengthen my abilities on the larger contrabass horn. I've looked at used Eb tubas online--there aren't many that are in good condition that are in my price range. The Elf is "only" a thousand bucks, but I suspect I'd be happier with it than I would be with a $500 used Eb that might have to have some work done.

Further complicating this is that I went to NABBA last Friday in Fort Wayne and played the Wessex "Maly" tornister euphonium, and thought it was awesome. This would not fill the niche I've outlined above, but I am keeping in mind the possibility that I should get it just because I liked it, then bite the bullet and play the CC any time I want to play the tuba!

Thanks for your time and for all the useful info I've found on this site.

[KKORO]

I know it's more money, but you're describing the "Bambino." I'm in your situation as I play piano and just couldn't get use to the Bb fingering. Just change the key sig. on the bass clef and you're good to go.

KKORO

[John Morgan]

So what exactly would you use the Eb tuba for? I am a euphonium/trombone player and recently bought the Eb Bombino and couldn't be happier with it. I used it in a brass ensemble for Easter gigs and will now use it in a brass quintet. I could not tell exactly what you planned to use the Eb for, sounded like you would still play church solos on the CC and use the CC in community bands. Seems like you would need a real use for the Eb beyond just wanting one. Brass quintet, maybe? Also would work in church. In fact the Eb might work better in church, depending on the instrumentation, choir, etc. I was told to hold back a bit when I played the Eb on Easter and we only had a 5 piece ensemble, but also a smaller sized choir without microphones.

[Eupher6]

Agree with John. What's the Eb tuba to be used for? If it's nothing more than personal satisfaction in learning the instrument, there's a lot of good in that statement. But most people have to have a need before plunking down more money on a horn (at least this is what Mrs. E tells me all the time). :-)

I'm in the other boat. I've played bass clef and Bb treble clef as long as I've been playing, and for me to learn another set of fingerings for CC -- fuggetaboudit. Ain't goin' there.

I played euph and trombone for 40 years before a brass q situation happened about 10 years ago. I took the plunge and bought a tuba; as a result I'm playing Bb tuba in a competing brass band (probably saw you at NABBA without knowing it). I also have an Eb comper that I'd rather play, as schlepping around the BBb is not fun, as you pointed out.

I suppose if I had the money and ignored the evil eye I would surely get, I'd probably go with the Bambino. But I already have a Boosey Eb comper, and thus I have no need for it.

Now baritone, on the other hand. I could use one-a-them.....

Just don't tell Mrs. E.......

[ghmerrill]

I just can't see the Elf as anything beyond a "middle school tuba" for a beginning student of small size -- and even then I'd opt for a small BBb (and I LOVE Eb tubas). I don't get this current fascination with the Elf.

The Bombino is a real (though small) tuba that can play real tuba music. If you want to play real tuba parts you need a real tuba. I can almost guarantee that you'll become unhappy with the Elf very quickly, and then will be able to sell it only at a loss (if that).

[Koukalaka]

Just don't tell Mrs. E.......

LOL to that, me too!

Good questions about my potential use for the horn. I envision this primarily being a practice instrument for me...something that I can easily stick in the car and take with me to get some practice in when I'm at church. (My church, as is the case with many churches, has an acoustically WONDERFUL space and I sound better there than anywhere else!)

If I thought I'd use this for performance, the Bombino would seem like the obvious choice. But the Elf is the same size (actually I think the body of the horn is the same, it just has a 3v non-compensating valve block) and costs less than half as much ($995 for the Elf, $2100 for the Bombino).

I guess what it comes down to is this: would I find the Elf to be a useful low-cost practice instrument that would get me playing more often? I can afford to buy it, but if it wouldn't be adequate in that role, I'll just use my CC. Having a second tuba would be totally a luxury thing and not something I "need".

I can almost guarantee that you'll become unhappy with the Elf very quickly, and then will be able to sell it only at a loss (if that).

I appreciate that...maybe this is the answer to my question. And ultimately, I don't think I'm going to spend 2 grand for another instrument just for practice. Maybe I'll come across a small used Eb that would fit the bill...or maybe I'm better off just playing the horn I have.

[Koukalaka]

Another thought from me: there are probably two good reasons to buy an instrument (or anything, I suppose) for yourself. 1) it fills a need you have; 2) you just really like it.

Maybe a beginner tuba isn't going to do either of those things for me. And maybe if I'm honest with myself, there really isn't anything that fits category 1 right now, because the instruments I have already can do what I need them to do. Category 2 is much more subjective, so if I come across a used Eb that has character and speaks to me, that's a different situation.

Thanks for your honest advice.

[ghmerrill]

I'm left puzzled by what you'd be "practicing" with it and why you'd be practicing it with that instrument. Not quite seeing the real goal here, I guess.

[Koukalaka]

I'm left puzzled by what you'd be "practicing" with it and why you'd be practicing it with that instrument. Not quite seeing the real goal here, I guess.

By that I simply mean that I'd be playing more. When I go to church twice a week for choir practice, meetings, etc., I would enjoy also taking a little time to play my tuba in that space. My usual practice room at home is two flights of stairs away from my car, and I don't often take the tuba with me. I guess I naively thought that I could find more opportunities to play if I were to get a small Eb that would be easy to transport without spending too much money.

[Eupher6]

By that I simply mean that I'd be playing more. When I go to church twice a week for choir practice, meetings, etc., I would enjoy also taking a little time to play my tuba in that space. My usual practice room at home is two flights of stairs away from my car, and I don't often take the tuba with me. I guess I naively thought that I could find more opportunities to play if I were to get a small Eb that would be easy to transport without spending too much money.

Well, with the smaller Eb, you never know what might happen in your band's bass section. I understand the lugging-up-two-flights-of-stairs bit. Ugh.

As to which Eb, there are those who have spoken on this thread who know much more about that than I do.

Good luck!

[ghmerrill]

Well, again, then it really depends on the kind of music and demands it imposes. The Elf could work, but before I dived into it, I'd want one question answered (which I raised on another thread here about the Elf): How are the false tones on it? If it has good false tones, then it IS usable for a broad variety of music in the way that you envision. I've used my 1924 Buescher in community band, and tend to do so on "patriotic occasions" (4th of July, Veteran's Day, etc.). I've also used it in Tuba Christmas. The intonation isn't unproblematic on that horn, but it does work and with some effort plays reasonably well in tune. The false tones are great, and so it plays chromatically down to the pedal Eb (and lower). For Tuba Christmas I can use it to play either the Tuba 1 part (where's it's happier) or the Tuba 2 part (which is a lot more effort).

If the Elf does likewise, then it could suit your purpose, but I haven't seen a response to my question about it. I note also that for some years Jim Laabs has been selling a horn that appears virtually identical to the Elf (called the "Gentleman's tuba"), but I also have no idea of what its false tones are like.

[Koukalaka]

Ghmerrill and others, would you expect an older used horn to be better in terms of false tone ability? All the used Eb tubas I’m finding are 3v horns as well. In my price range, I think I’d be looking at a used 3v or the Elf. Unfortunately it will be pretty tough for me to find a used horn that I can actually play before buying.

Another option would be the “Bubbie 5” travel tuba. It converts from F to Eb—not sure how much slide pulling is necessary to tune it in Eb, but this would be a 5-valve tuba. Upper end of my price range, but certainly easy to transport.

[MarChant]

Just thinking, wouldn't the Wessex French Tuba in C be an option here?

[ghmerrill]

Many (most?) Eb tubas have good (or at least usable) false tones. This seems to be a consequence of length of the tubing, the overall dimensions, the degree of conical bore, and where the notes lie in the overtone series of the conical instrument -- at least that's the most popular explanation I've seen. And in the case of particular older American or British tubas, these properties are well known. In the case of newer tubas (like the Elf or the "Gentleman's Tuba") they may not be, because not many people (and not many adults) are using them. If you find one you're interested in, post a query to Tubenet and you'll likely find one or more people who have personal experience with that model.

My Wessex Champion (Besson 981/982-ish clone) has excellent false tones, though it's almost never worthwhile to use them, of course.

Likewise, in the case of older Eb tubas there is a lot of "lore" about them that may or may not be true -- such as that you "must" use certain kinds of mouthpieces with them in order for them to play well. And a number of these instruments were never good tubas, even when new and on their best days. But some of them are excellent, and many are at least adequate -- if originally pitched at 440 or easily modified to that. My Buescher is an example of a "not great, but okay" instrument. Also, if you have to cut the instrument in order to bring it into the correct pitch, this can adversely affect the intonation. Finally, the larger Eb tubas ("giants" or "mammoths") seem to have something of a reputation for unreliable intonation. The small to medium size ones seem to enjoy a reputation as good players and generally with good false tones.

[Koukalaka]

I decided to go for it, and ordered the Elf. I think I have a better understanding of the potential limitations after this discussion and I’ll report back after I get the instrument and have a chance to play it. Although I know it won’t have the same capabilities as my “main” tuba, I think it will be fun to have a small tuba to play even if it’s just on my own...but playing on my own just for the joy of it is 99% of what I do anyway! (And I guess that’s really the point of music, right?).