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Thread: Adams E3 Miscellaneous Thoughts

  1. #1

    Adams E3 Miscellaneous Thoughts

    I've had my E3 (SS Bell, Brushed Lacquer Finish) now for enough time that I thought I'd offer some thoughts.

    1) I felt that the valves were a little sluggish; that is, much more sluggish than the valves on my Miraphone 5050, or even marching baritone. I thought initially that they likely needed to be more broken in, but after a few months of regular cleaning and playing, I figured I should ask my tech. I'd been using ultra pure oil, and he suggested the ultra light oil for tight tolerance valves; worked like a charm. The valves are now much better.

    2) My 4th valve is flat, even if it's pushed in all the way; anyone else have that experience? This is when I try to tune the valve to a C above low Bb.

    3) The 2/3 valve combinations are still a little weird for me; I'm working on that.

    4) The trigger mechanism is a little frustrating, and isn't that smooth in operation. I gather that Adams has now changed the trigger mechanism, but I don't think it's possible to change to the new trigger setup. I may need to have my tech look at setting something up differently.

    5) The thing sounds great. No complaints there! Most of my current playing is in British style brass bands, and for this purpose, it's exceedingly easy to blend with the more "british" sounding horns that are often used in those bands, yet still possible to move toward the more "german" sound if desired. A very versatile horn.
    Mike Taylor

    Illinois Brass Band
    Fox Valley Brass Band

  2. #2
    My intonation issues with the Adams euphs were a little different.

    About 4 years ago, I bought an E1 at 0.6mm sterling silver bell. Horn was pitch-wise flat, but mostly manageable. Still was a pain to deal with, though. But I wanted a little more beef to the horn, so I play-tested an E2 and still encountered an over-all flat pitch horn. Loved the sound I got (0.8mm), but struggled with the pitch problem.

    Convinced Miel to build me an E2 that was cut down about an inch overall. They did that at the factory, including adjusting the valve slide lengths to compensate, and that fixed the low pitch problem. But now I've got to pull the 3rd and 4th valves out about a half-inch each to get things to even out. Works great, and even in warmer temps, I can let the pitch rise with everyone else and I still have room to play with.

    Fourth-space G is still horribly sharp, though, and the only fix with that is to use 3rd valve only for sustained sections.

    I suspect that I would have similar pitch problems if I were to go to an E3. Not gonna do that. I'm perfectly fine with the E2.

    Neither of the Adams euphs I had had a trigger. I believed then, and still believe, that a trigger just isn't needed. Extra hardware and finicky adjustment to do -- no thanks.

    None of this answers your question, but I thought I'd describe my experiences with Adams euphs. It's a fine horn and I'm happy with mine, but it does have some "personality" quirks!
    U.S. Army, Retired (built mid-1950s)
    Adams E2 Euph (built 2017)
    Boosey & Co. Imperial Euph (built 1941)
    Edwards B454 Bass Trombone (built 2012)
    Boosey & Hawkes Imperial Eb tuba (built 1958)
    Kanstul 33-T lBBb tuba (built 2010)

  3. #3
    Mike - I can't comment on the specifics of your horn except to say I had similar problems with 4th valve flatness and 2/3 weirdness on the E1 I used to own. I really enjoyed your 1st section performance though at NABBA!
    Adams E3 0.6 with SS Bell
    K&G 3.5D
    ---------------------------------
    Founder and Solo Euphonium
    San Francisco Brass Band

  4. #4
    Jake,

    Thanks very much for the kind words, and the comments on twitter! We should do a board meetup at nabba next year.

    Mike

    Quote Originally Posted by JakeGuilbo View Post
    Mike - I can't comment on the specifics of your horn except to say I had similar problems with 4th valve flatness and 2/3 weirdness on the E1 I used to own. I really enjoyed your 1st section performance though at NABBA!
    Mike Taylor

    Illinois Brass Band
    Fox Valley Brass Band

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Dumfries, VA (Potomac Shores)
    Posts
    316
    Mike,

    I can attest to some of what you posted, and wanted to share my experiences. I have played an E1 and two different E3's before ultimately having my own custom E3 built with Sterling Silver bell, Sterling Silver lead pipe, and brushed lacquer finish. Pitch from the E1 to the E3 is VERY different in my experiences, and much better overall for me on the E3. I've also found that certain mouthpieces don't play as well in regard to pitch. For example, a Schilke 51D will force me to push the slide all the way in, and even then, hope that my horn isn't cold! I've found that even with larger throat mouthpieces, I still have my main slide only out maybe a half inch or so, and I'm fine with that. My German Besson Prestige was the same way.

    As for the valves, the tolerances are VERY tight. I recommend actually using Blue Juice for a few days to flush some stuff out (and because it's super thin), and then switching to Hetman #1. I've gone through MULTIPLE oils on this horn, and since switching to Hetman #1, I haven't looked back. Miel is actually shipping all Adams euphoniums now with Hetman #1, FYI, as they have had the same experience with this. Give that a try and let me know how that goes.

    As for 4th valve pitch, I don't have this issue on C, but I have had to learn to blow a bit higher than I'm used to on low B natural and F bottom of bass clef staff, and I'm actually okay with this. I relate it a bit to playing trombone using the trigger. Again, it's something that's different, but once I've gotten used to it, I actually prefer it. I find it the same with the compensating low register as well, and my center/pitch has actually improved in this area.

    As for 2/3 combination, I have had similar experiences. I tend to have the 3rd valve slide out quite a bit now and just blow up a bit on higher Gb/F#. Db in the staff tends to be very sharp (as on most euphoniums in my experience), and it is again a "lesser of evils" with this.

    The triggers are now being built and shipped with the ball joint popper. A good repair tech can install the parts. Email Miel and he should just send you the parts needed. Let me know if you need any help with this.

    I second you on the sound! Playing principal euphonium in Brass of the Potomac, I've noticed a MASSIVE difference in many areas. I agree with blending being easier, as well as being able to soar over the ensemble. Maybe Barry Bocaner can help speak to this as he is also a new E3 owner, and is in the section with me in BOTP!

    I'm glad you enjoy the horn. Let me know how using Blue Juice for a few days (wiping and oiling each time, a couple of times a day), and then try Hetman #1. My valves are WAY faster now than when I got the horn back in June of last year because of doing this. Feel free to shoot me an email if I can help any other way.
    Brandon Jones
    Principal Euphonium - The United States Air Force Band, Washington, D.C.
    bmjones82@gmail.com

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Summerfield, Florida Sturgis, SD (summers)
    Posts
    1,867
    Quote Originally Posted by BrandonJones View Post
    ......As for the valves, the tolerances are VERY tight. I recommend actually using Blue Juice for a few days to flush some stuff out (and because it's super thin), and then switching to Hetman #1. I've gone through MULTIPLE oils on this horn, and since switching to Hetman #1, I haven't looked back. Miel is actually shipping all Adams euphoniums now with Hetman #1, FYI, as they have had the same experience with this. Give that a try and let me know how that goes.....

    The triggers are now being built and shipped with the ball joint popper. A good repair tech can install the parts. Email Miel and he should just send you the parts needed. Let me know if you need any help with this.....
    Interesting about the valve oil. Last summer I experienced some valve sluggishness at the most inopportune time with my Adams E3. The valves didn't just stick a little, they actually almost froze half down/up when playing. When I took the valve out to oil, it was very dry feeling. I do keep my horn/valves clean. I wrote about this on this Forum and most thought the heat might have something to do with it. I quit using synthetics a couple years back as I was getting yucky stuff in the horn. I switched to Blue Juice. It works pretty good, but my valves are not lightning fast like I would like them to be. I still get the valve sluggishness and must use the Blue Juice more than once almost in any extended practice session. I am tempted to try Hetman's #1 again. I play solos frequently and need fast valves for the stuff I play. More than that, I don't need valves sticking or being sluggish at all - I hate that. So, Brandon, you have given me the motive to order some more Hetman's. I will see what happens.

    As for the trigger, I have the original screw barrel type on mine. I am wondering if I should send Miel a note asking about a replacement? What is your take on the new vs the old style trigger? Have you tried both? I love my E3 horn and won't probably ever change, but I might be interested in "upgrading" the trigger hardware.
    John Morgan
    The U.S. Army Band (Pershing's Own) 1971-1976
    Adams E3 Custom Series Euphonium, 1956 B&H Imperial Euphonium,
    1973 F. E. Olds & Son Studio Model T-31 Baritone
    Adams TB1 Tenor Trombone, Yamaha YBL-822G Bass Trombone
    Year Round Except Summer:
    Kingdom of the Sun (KOS) Concert Band, Ocala, FL (Euphonium)
    KOS Brass Quintet (Trombone, Euphonium)
    Summer Only:
    Rapid City Municipal Band, Rapid City, SD (Euphonium)
    Rapid City New Horizons Band (Euphonium)

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Summerfield, Florida Sturgis, SD (summers)
    Posts
    1,867
    Quote Originally Posted by miketeachesclass View Post
    I've had my E3 (SS Bell, Brushed Lacquer Finish) now for enough time that I thought I'd offer some thoughts.

    1) I felt that the valves were a little sluggish; that is, much more sluggish than the valves on my Miraphone 5050, or even marching baritone. I thought initially that they likely needed to be more broken in, but after a few months of regular cleaning and playing, I figured I should ask my tech. I'd been using ultra pure oil, and he suggested the ultra light oil for tight tolerance valves; worked like a charm. The valves are now much better.

    2) My 4th valve is flat, even if it's pushed in all the way; anyone else have that experience? This is when I try to tune the valve to a C above low Bb.

    3) The 2/3 valve combinations are still a little weird for me; I'm working on that.

    4) The trigger mechanism is a little frustrating, and isn't that smooth in operation. I gather that Adams has now changed the trigger mechanism, but I don't think it's possible to change to the new trigger setup. I may need to have my tech look at setting something up differently.

    5) The thing sounds great. No complaints there! Most of my current playing is in British style brass bands, and for this purpose, it's exceedingly easy to blend with the more "british" sounding horns that are often used in those bands, yet still possible to move toward the more "german" sound if desired. A very versatile horn.
    Mike, thanks for the comments. I love my E3. As for tuning, just for kicks (and I have checked the tuning many times before on my E3), I just now picked up my E3 and played a 4th valve C. It was quite flat. But, I was not warmed up. I then played for a few minutes, making sure I also used the 4th valve quite a bit. I then played a C and it was almost dead on. I also noticed this (actually I have always noticed a little flatness when cold) when returning from our morning New Horizons Band rehearsal. We play for an hour, take a 1/2 hour break, then finish with 30 minutes of rehearsal. The conductor usually tunes the band with a clarinet at the start (and I have warmed up considerably), but after our break, he usually asks me to play a concert F (in the staff, bass clef). If I have not warmed up again, it will be flat. If I have warmed up, it is right on. I have my slides set for when I am fully warmed up.

    I am going to try Hetman's (again, sigh!!!) as I have experienced sluggishness with my valves, especially last summer. Would rather have yucky stuff in my horn and have to clean more frequently AND fast working valves, then a non-yucky horn with bad working valves. BTW, I have been using Blue Juice. Pretty good, but have to use it often (multiple times during a long rehearsal) or my valves will "dry" out.
    John Morgan
    The U.S. Army Band (Pershing's Own) 1971-1976
    Adams E3 Custom Series Euphonium, 1956 B&H Imperial Euphonium,
    1973 F. E. Olds & Son Studio Model T-31 Baritone
    Adams TB1 Tenor Trombone, Yamaha YBL-822G Bass Trombone
    Year Round Except Summer:
    Kingdom of the Sun (KOS) Concert Band, Ocala, FL (Euphonium)
    KOS Brass Quintet (Trombone, Euphonium)
    Summer Only:
    Rapid City Municipal Band, Rapid City, SD (Euphonium)
    Rapid City New Horizons Band (Euphonium)

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    NYC metro area
    Posts
    523
    Quote Originally Posted by John Morgan View Post
    [snip]I am going to try Hetman's (again, sigh!!!) as I have experienced sluggishness with my valves, especially last summer. Would rather have yucky stuff in my horn and have to clean more frequently AND fast working valves, then a non-yucky horn with bad working valves. BTW, I have been using Blue Juice. Pretty good, but have to use it often (multiple times during a long rehearsal) or my valves will "dry" out.
    John - have you tried the Yamaha? I have used Hetman #1, and it did require more frequent cleaning, then Blue Juice (same issues as you), and I now use Yamaha valve oil. For me, at least, it's been doing a good job.
    Dean L. Surkin
    Mack Brass MACK-EU1150S, BB1 mouthpiece
    Bach 36B trombone; Bach 6.5AL and Faxx 7C mouthpieces (pBone on loan to granddaughter)
    Steinway 1902 Model A, restored by AC Pianocraft in 1988; Kawai MP8, Yamaha KX-76
    See my avatar: Jazz (the black cockapoo; RIP) and Delilah (the cavapoo) keep me company while practicing

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Summerfield, Florida Sturgis, SD (summers)
    Posts
    1,867
    Quote Originally Posted by dsurkin View Post
    John - have you tried the Yamaha? I have used Hetman #1, and it did require more frequent cleaning, then Blue Juice (same issues as you), and I now use Yamaha valve oil. For me, at least, it's been doing a good job.
    Dean - I did try the Yamaha. In fact, that was what I was using with my Adams prior to getting Blue Juice. And I used Hetman's before that. The Yamaha left a bunch of crud in my instrument, in the valve casing at the bottom, in the valve holes, and also I had some yuck in my slide tubes. Almost stopped up one complete slide tube. So, I ditched all the synthetic stuff. Seems the valve oil has been a never ending drama for me forever. I will give the Hetman's a shot, and if not happy with that, try Yamaha again. I will get the light version of both of those for sure. This really shouldn't be so difficult....
    John Morgan
    The U.S. Army Band (Pershing's Own) 1971-1976
    Adams E3 Custom Series Euphonium, 1956 B&H Imperial Euphonium,
    1973 F. E. Olds & Son Studio Model T-31 Baritone
    Adams TB1 Tenor Trombone, Yamaha YBL-822G Bass Trombone
    Year Round Except Summer:
    Kingdom of the Sun (KOS) Concert Band, Ocala, FL (Euphonium)
    KOS Brass Quintet (Trombone, Euphonium)
    Summer Only:
    Rapid City Municipal Band, Rapid City, SD (Euphonium)
    Rapid City New Horizons Band (Euphonium)

  10. #10
    Brandon,

    Thanks very much for the follow up. As with all horns, there are idiosyncrasies that we deal with.

    I'll try the blue juice for a few days and then hettman #1; although I have to say, my soul hurts thinking about using the blue juice! I've already had the horn pro-cleaned so I may skip the 'juice, but I may give it a shot just to see what happens. I'm pretty good about cleaning, and my tech tells me to oil before AND after playing.

    I agree with you on different mouthpieces behaving differently. The adjustable gap receiver makes this quandary a little harder to diagnose too, as there are so many options. I'm still back and forth with your signature G+W and a couple other contenders. Didn't you tell me you had your horn made without the AGR?

    How far out is your 3rd valve slide, out of curiosity? I find myself out about an inch, and still triggering the F# in the staff.

    I'll definitely reach out to Miel about the trigger parts. Thanks for the suggestion!

    Mike

    Quote Originally Posted by BrandonJones View Post
    Mike,

    I can attest to some of what you posted, and wanted to share my experiences. I have played an E1 and two different E3's before ultimately having my own custom E3 built with Sterling Silver bell, Sterling Silver lead pipe, and brushed lacquer finish. Pitch from the E1 to the E3 is VERY different in my experiences, and much better overall for me on the E3. I've also found that certain mouthpieces don't play as well in regard to pitch. For example, a Schilke 51D will force me to push the slide all the way in, and even then, hope that my horn isn't cold! I've found that even with larger throat mouthpieces, I still have my main slide only out maybe a half inch or so, and I'm fine with that. My German Besson Prestige was the same way.

    As for the valves, the tolerances are VERY tight. I recommend actually using Blue Juice for a few days to flush some stuff out (and because it's super thin), and then switching to Hetman #1. I've gone through MULTIPLE oils on this horn, and since switching to Hetman #1, I haven't looked back. Miel is actually shipping all Adams euphoniums now with Hetman #1, FYI, as they have had the same experience with this. Give that a try and let me know how that goes.

    As for 4th valve pitch, I don't have this issue on C, but I have had to learn to blow a bit higher than I'm used to on low B natural and F bottom of bass clef staff, and I'm actually okay with this. I relate it a bit to playing trombone using the trigger. Again, it's something that's different, but once I've gotten used to it, I actually prefer it. I find it the same with the compensating low register as well, and my center/pitch has actually improved in this area.

    As for 2/3 combination, I have had similar experiences. I tend to have the 3rd valve slide out quite a bit now and just blow up a bit on higher Gb/F#. Db in the staff tends to be very sharp (as on most euphoniums in my experience), and it is again a "lesser of evils" with this.

    The triggers are now being built and shipped with the ball joint popper. A good repair tech can install the parts. Email Miel and he should just send you the parts needed. Let me know if you need any help with this.

    I second you on the sound! Playing principal euphonium in Brass of the Potomac, I've noticed a MASSIVE difference in many areas. I agree with blending being easier, as well as being able to soar over the ensemble. Maybe Barry Bocaner can help speak to this as he is also a new E3 owner, and is in the section with me in BOTP!

    I'm glad you enjoy the horn. Let me know how using Blue Juice for a few days (wiping and oiling each time, a couple of times a day), and then try Hetman #1. My valves are WAY faster now than when I got the horn back in June of last year because of doing this. Feel free to shoot me an email if I can help any other way.
    Mike Taylor

    Illinois Brass Band
    Fox Valley Brass Band

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