Denis Wick 4AL doesn't seal to my "new" used Besson

[bemge]

Hello-
I just purchased a used 3 valve Besson off ebay, and got a great deal on it- seeing as it was wrongly advertized as compensating.

(Here's the link for pictures ) https://www.ebay.com/itm/Besson-3-Va...vip=true&rt=nc

I like old instruments and don't mind the appearance. I play in a community band and just need something with a decent tone. Unfortunately the King I was playing on previously had a small shank mouthpiece so I was playing on a Denis Wick 7CS, so I had to buy a new 4AL for this large shank euphonium. My new mouthpiece however, doesn't seal to my receiver. I am finding the instrument to have lagging response in the low range and I am not adjusting well to the new 4AL. I don't have a store nearby that has a good mouthpiece selection for me to try, so I purchased my mouthpiece based on recommendations Do you think this is the mouthpiece and I should stick with it? Is it possible I need a European sized mouthpiece? Is there a way to improve connection to the receiver? Thanks!

[58mark]

first of all, it is compensating, but it's a compensating system based on a 3 valve system.. That means that the valve combinations of 1-3 and 1-2-3 are going to be more in tune than a non compensating horn

Second, every 3 valve compensating euph I've seen has had a medium shank. Try a Mead SM4M if you like the 4AL

[davewerden]

How far in does your 4AL shank go? It should go in about 1-1/4". If it barely goes in, then you probably have a medium-shank receiver and should use something like a Wick 4AM (M=medium).

If it goes in that far but rocks a bit, then the receiver may have been distorted or the mouthpiece shank is distorted. A shop could probably turn the shank of your mouthpiece slightly so it fits snugly.

[enhite]

If none of the excellent suggestions above fix your problem, you might look at the shank receiver depth. I had problems with a medium shank mouthpiece fitting my Conn 24i. When I measured the depth (using a toothpick, if I remember correctly) I discovered that it was ever so slightly shallower than my Besson New Standard. I carefully filed 1/8" off the bottom of a medium shank mouthpiece and it now fits the Conn perfectly.

[Nbnarcisi]

I have the same exact Besson, (model 766 I believe) as Mark says, it is definitely a compensating horn and mine does indeed take a euro shank mpc., mine happens to be a Schilke 51D.

[daruby]

I second all comments above,

The Conn 24I and the Besson euro-shank are ever so slightly different. The CONN was a medium Remington shank which is slightly larger than euro shank. Therefore the standard medium shank mouthpiece bottoms out in the receiver. The taper is basically the same, so I also filed about 1/8" off the end of my new Wick 5BM mouthpiece to fit my 24I. The Besson 3-valve compensator should use a 4AM instead of a 4AL if it has the original receiver. If so, it should fit just fine.

In college, I used a Bach 6 1/2AL (not available in medium shank). I could use the Conn small shank adapter from the 24I in both the 24I and my Besson New Standard, but the adapter that came with the Besson was "loose" in the Conn.

Doug

[dsurkin]

In addition to the other comments about medium shank, it seems to me that going from the 7CS to the 4AL entails a big change in rim diameter.

[daruby]

In addition to the other comments about medium shank, it seems to me that going from the 7CS to the 4AL entails a big change in rim diameter.

I had missed this part. I think a Wick 5BM or 6BM would be a better choice than a Wick 4AM when transitioning from the 7CS (a tenor trombone/American baritone mouthpiece).

[bemge]

Yes I believe I am also not adjusting well. My King was a baritone and the 7CS mouthpiece is what I am used to. The 4AL is proving difficult for me to cleanly attack on. But regardless, my mouthpiece doesn't fit. Sounds like I need to return my 4AL and order something with a medium or european shank. I am not an experienced Euphonium player, I have just been asked to play in my local community band and decided it would be a good opportunity to improve. I played tuba in college and am now a MS band director. Where should I order my new mouthpiece from?

[bemge]

Cool, do you like your Besson 766? I haven't been able to play properly on it yet due to the mouthpiece troubles. Do you by any chance know what the age is? I found a few charts with approximate years putting it between the late 50's and early 60's.

[iiipopes]

Yes. Unless the receiver is worn or has been altered, the horn takes a mouthpiece with the Medium shank. Wick still makes them in all three lines: the traditional, the Steven Mead, and the Ultra; they are standard catalog items. I purchased a Wick mouthpiece for my recently acquired B&H 3-valve comp with the medium receiver.

One elaboration to the above: with the three-valve comp, you are essentially limited to the low E natural at the bottom of the bass clef, 1+2+3. However, at least for me in a community band setting, that is all I require. The upside is that the 3rd valve slide is not pulled to get 2+3 combinations in tune, unlike a 4-valve comp, so a player can play G's and D's either with 1+2, which may be slightly sharp, since 1 and 2 are each "dead" tuned, or with 3 alone, which is also "dead" tuned because of the comp loops, or open in the upper octave or some of the other combinations depending on where the intonation quirks are on a particular horn in the upper register, including the sharp high F, depending on the shading of intonation required in the particular instance.

I agree with the concern about going to a larger rim. I came from a 6 1/2 AL, so I purchased the Baritone Ultra 6, which has a similar diameter cup, SM6U in a small shank, for my Wessex BR115, and the medium shank SM6MU for my B&H 3-valve comp (the second "M" is for "Medium Shank). Yes, that might be a good way to start: changing only one geometry spec at a time; in this case, going from the trombone cup to a deeper euph cup, while keeping a similar rim and diameter.

[TheJH]

When I was younger I played on a Besson 5 mouthpiece (basically a Bach 7C in diameter) and I tried a Wick SM4U. The change was WAY too big. You're going from a 24.7mm inner diameter to a 26mm inner diameter rim. That's a LOT. It took me 2 years to go from the Besson 5, via a Schilke 51D, to a Wick 5AL (25.75mm) and be comfortable with it. I would, as suggested above, go with a medium shank 6-size (25.4mm) mouthpiece.