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Thread: Puzzled About Pitch

  1. #1

    Puzzled About Pitch

    I'm trying to figure this out and hope you guys can help me -

    I've had trouble with pitch to the point that I've had to order an Adams euph (an E2) that Miel & Co cut down at the factory from whatever the normal length is. The result is terrific and I have no complaints.

    I had to do the same thing with my Kanstul 33-T tuba when I bought it back in 2010. Lee Stofer took out a small little loop aft of the valve section and that fixed that problem.

    Just the other day I pulled out my Bach Strad 42OG tenor trombone, put the Schilke 51D mouthpiece I'd had in it from the beginning (I bought the horn new in 1990) and was horrified to see that I was blowing a half-step flat.

    In looking at the Schilke, I noticed it has a somewhat looooooong shank. So I rummaged through my mouthpiece collection and happened on a Warburton 6B with a B3 shank. (I have no recollection of buying this mouthpiece and it looked somewhat dated.) I see from the Warburton site that the B3 shank is intended for bass trombone and 3 is the largest size, meaning that this setup is probably not ideal for a large bore tenor like the Bach Strad.

    The Warburton's relatively short shank length (maybe 3/4" of an inch shorter than the Schilke) solved a lot of the pitch problem (flat), though not completely. I still don't have a lot of room for adjustment through the tuning slide. And I don't care for the overall feel of that mouthpiece - maybe because I've been playing a lot of tuba lately.

    I'm wondering if this pitch thing is a result of my playing tuba, or perhaps age (I'm 61 now), or some other reason that some of you can identify with.

    Secondly, apart from the Warburton and Doug Elliott modular thing (I have a Doug Elliott for my medium shank Imperial, which I'm happy with - and btw, I had to have my Imperial cut down as well -- are you beginning to see my problem?), are there any other mouthpiece manufacturers out there that seem to put out shorter-length shanks or overall shorter-length products?
    U.S. Army, Retired (built mid-1950s)
    Adams E2 Euph (built 2017)
    Boosey & Co. Imperial Euph (built 1941)
    Edwards B454 Bass Trombone (built 2012)
    Boosey & Hawkes Imperial Eb tuba (built 1958)
    Kanstul 33-T lBBb tuba (built 2010)

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Central North Carolina
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    I vote for age. I think I'm facing the same problem in the last couple of years (and also in switching from tuba to bass trombone as my primary instrument). And I'm 10 years older than you. I never noticed the problem with the tuba (including the past year). But my tendency is to "naturally" play a bit flat now on euph or bass trombone -- exacerbated by using a large mouthpiece on the large bore baritone instruments. If I move to a smaller mouthpiece, the pitch comes up. It's really irritating. I'm pretty sure I could fix it with embouchure exercises, but have been too lazy to do it that way, especially since on the trombone it's easy to fix dynamically with the hand slide. On euph, it's REALLY irritating. I don't think that chasing the problem with mouthpiece changes will be an effective way to go unless you're willing to change your overall sound.

    I have noticed (in community bands) that the primary problem with older players (okay ... elderly and quasi-elderly -- the French use the term "les anciens" ) is a tendency to play off pitch (sometimes a LOT off pitch). This can be a result of either hearing loss or embouchure loss, and it can be either in the sharp direction or the flat direction. Muscle tone in the embouchure degrades and results in flatness -- except that in the high range people end up playing sharp because they're straining to get the note out. So they end up playing sharp and flat. And then hearing loss intrudes and they can't tell they're out of tune. In the band I'm currently playing in, this problem is not very pronounced (lower average age) -- except in the trumpet section -- which (surprise) is dominated by les anciens. Alor, je suis un ancien. C'est tragique.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  3. #3
    Older Schilke mouthpieces have the longer stem, I believe most of the newer ones are shorter. My theory is it had something to do with Reynold Schilke's theories on intonation. You used to be able to call Schilke and tell them you wanted "Bach length." Doug Elliott's mouthpieces have a long stem by default, too. I think the Euro shank may be the exception to that rule. In general, I prefer his mouthpieces with the short stem option (S model) as I think they have less resistance. FYI I don't believe that a 51D works well in a Bach 42, I think it's a little too tubby sounding.

    I don't have any theories for you as to why you may tend on the low side, sorry. Maybe have an embouchure expert (like Doug!) look at a video of you playing?
    --
    Barry

  4. #4
    Perhaps the problem is related to the size of the backbore. A larger backbore tends to raise the pitch, while a tighter backbore tends to lower the pitch. My experience with the Warburton euph mouthpieces is that they have a very large backbore compared to the Schilke 51D. Whenever I use a 51D, I always find that any upper range sharpness that I have with a larger backbore mouthpiece vanishes. Try sticking a pencil into the shank of each and see if the Warburtion is larger. Just don't forget to compensate for the shank length.

    Mike

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by mbrooke View Post
    Perhaps the problem is related to the size of the backbore. A larger backbore tends to raise the pitch, while a tighter backbore tends to lower the pitch. My experience with the Warburton euph mouthpieces is that they have a very large backbore compared to the Schilke 51D. Whenever I use a 51D, I always find that any upper range sharpness that I have with a larger backbore mouthpiece vanishes. Try sticking a pencil into the shank of each and see if the Warburtion is larger. Just don't forget to compensate for the shank length.

    Mike
    I haven't had time to do the pencil evaluation, but the Warburton shank size (or what's stamped on it) is a B3. According to their web site, that's the largest bass trombone-sized shank they offer.

    Based on what you're saying, that larger size should bring the pitch up. It does, but I'm not so sure it's the size of the backbore - could very well be the shorter length of the shank.

    Still evaluating.

    Thanks to all who responded.
    U.S. Army, Retired (built mid-1950s)
    Adams E2 Euph (built 2017)
    Boosey & Co. Imperial Euph (built 1941)
    Edwards B454 Bass Trombone (built 2012)
    Boosey & Hawkes Imperial Eb tuba (built 1958)
    Kanstul 33-T lBBb tuba (built 2010)

  6. I have gotten flat on every low brass instrument that I play (baritone, euphonium, and tuba) as I've aged (now I'm 42), so I know it's something to do with my embouchure. I've trained myself to have as open of an oral cavity as possible, and I think that's part of my issue, which I get around my raising my lower jaw.

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