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Thread: Wessex French C Tuba

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarChant View Post
    Maybe in Bruckner or Wagner, but even then I wonder if it would be really that noticeable. At least not for the average audience, I believe.
    Then you might also wonder why in such situations John Fletcher switched from his beloved Eb compensating tuba to a CC
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by ghmerrill View Post
    I submit to you that renaissance music played by a modern brass quintet sounds better than when performed on period instruments -- at least for some pretty obvious senses of "sounds better".
    This may be the most ridiculous thing I've ever read on this forum. What do you mean by "pretty obvious senses of 'sounds better'"?

    I see your point, but in many cases while the modern instrument can be louder, clearer, easier to play, more consistent; something is lost. Whether it be a unique timbre, idiosyncrasies of tuning or response, etc., the composers weren't stupid. When Bach or Handel wrote for trumpet, they knew they were going to get a little "twang" on the high F and A. And they used that to great effect! And you can play it on a modern piccolo trumpet with perfect intonation, but you've lost something. Would a composer writing for ophicleide be happier with a modern 6/4 grand orchestral tuba with a rich and velvety low range? Maybe. But perhaps also in many cases they knew they were getting a funny buzzy instrument with uneven response and wrote the part accordingly.

    I can't stand listening to even the best modern orchestras play baroque music anymore. Why? I've been spoiled by hearing too many good baroque orchestras using gut strings and baroque bows and their technique, knowledge of the music, and instruments contribute to a FAR superior performance in my book.
    --
    Barry

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghmerrill View Post
    Then you might also wonder why in such situations John Fletcher switched from his beloved Eb compensating tuba to a CC
    I most certainly do not. I know that the great German composers like Bruckner and very likely Wagner as well made a distinct difference between 'Tuba' and 'Basstuba' and even 'Kontrabasstuba', so any professional tubist would too when playing their music. I do not know why you mentioned this, as I was referring to the audiences perception while you swapped my remark around to the performers choice of instrument according to the composers wishes. Actually, with that I believe you perfectly demonstrated the point iiipopes is trying to make.

    Also, the fact that the German composers could make this difference means that their French counterparts could have as well. Since they did not, they must have preferred the sound of the French tuba above that of the already available larger BBb 'Kontrabasstuba'. Did you watch the links Jonathantuba provided? Mr. Kleinsteuber explains it all very well.
    Last edited by MarChant; 03-04-2018 at 02:47 AM.

  4. #24
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    Feeling the Carl Kleinstauber demonstration on the french tuba I was pleasantly surprised by the sound of this instrument and I wonder of this can be played in a contemporary wind band in place or concurrently in the euphonium part.
    I ask this because, as requested in a recent discussion by Acronios, with the french tuba you can play the parts written in bass key with the normal fingering without transposing.
    The tone of the two instruments would merge well or there may be some problems with the intonation, since the same sounds are moved on different harmonics?
    2007 Besson Prestige 2052, 3D+ K&G mouthpiece; JP373 baritone, 4B modified K&G mouthpiece; Bach 42GO trombone, T4C K&G mouthpiece; 1973 Besson New Standard 3 compensated valves, 3D+ K&G modified mouthpiece; Wessex French C tuba, 3D+ K&G modified mouthpiece.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by ghmerrill View Post
    There is also the question of what sounds better (though this is a more subjective judgement). I submit to you that renaissance music played by a modern brass quintet sounds better than when performed on period instruments -- at least for some pretty obvious senses of "sounds better". This doesn't mean that there isn't interest or value in performing with the period instruments.
    Oh, I wish you could have heard the quintet concert (traditional 2 cornetts and three sackbuts) I was privileged to be in the audience in London in 1982. The intonation was superlative. The blend impeccable. The musical phrasing and dynamics excelled. I was spellbound with what "antique" instruments could do. I must disagree with this categorical statement.
    Last edited by iiipopes; 03-06-2018 at 08:55 AM.

  6. Quote Originally Posted by ghmerrill View Post
    because the composer's wishes are totally conditioned and constrained by what was available to him at the time. So if a composer had only an ophicleide as a bass brass instrument, then that severely constrained his choice.
    The Ravel "Pictures" arrangement dates from 1922, when all current flavors of tubas already existed. And yet Ravel wrote for the small French C tuba. The entire part, and not just Bydlo.

    Modern tuba jocks aren't even aware that Pictures, the Organ Symphony, the Stravinsky ballets, the Rite, etc. were all written with the French tuba in mind. They blythely use the largest tuba they can find instead. It's a failure on the part of their educators.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by toobaman View Post

    Modern tuba jocks aren't even aware that Pictures, the Organ Symphony, the Stravinsky ballets, the Rite, etc. were all written with the French tuba in mind. They blythely use the largest tuba they can find instead. It's a failure on the part of their educators.
    Not sure what the scope of "tuba jocks" is here. But my experience is that what you've said is absolutely false.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbocaner View Post
    This may be the most ridiculous thing I've ever read on this forum. What do you mean by "pretty obvious senses of 'sounds better'"?

    I see your point, but in many cases while the modern instrument can be louder, clearer, easier to play, more consistent; something is lost.
    Well, back at you -- though I don't think what you've said is the "most" ridiculous thing I've ever read on this forum.

    Then you concede the point, and concede the benefits of the modern instruments in terms of sound. I never denied the value and interest of period instruments, and even gave an example of a great performance in such a case.

    There are a number of things I can't stand as well. But, to borrow a phrase from Kant, I don't will my attitudes towards them as universal maxims.

    So ... I see your point. I always have. You seem to see mine. Ridiculousity doesn't really seem to be present at all.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarChant View Post
    Also, the fact that the German composers could make this difference means that their French counterparts could have as well. Since they did not, they must have preferred the sound of the French tuba above that of the already available larger BBb 'Kontrabasstuba'.
    I cannot deny that French composers had reasons for preferring a French instrument over a German one -- though one must keep in mind that the contra bass tuba was not the only German alternative available -- by a long shot.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  10. Quote Originally Posted by ghmerrill View Post
    my experience is that what you've said is absolutely false.
    No further need to mince words with you or your vast "experience". I leave you to your conscience.

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