Fingering in C or Bb?

[acronias]

Hello,

I am an amateur trombone player. I have been playing the trombone for 6 months. It has been 20 years since the last time I played a brass instrument. I learned the CC tuba when I was in high school. Sometimes, I played the euphonium using the CC tuba fingering (Open position = C) and transposing.

Now, I would like to play again a baritone valve instrument like euphonium, baritone horn or valve trombone. My problem or concern is with transposing. For several reasons, I don't want to transpose. I want to finger C and get concert pitch C out of the instrument.

My options are

1. Buy an instrument tuned in C.

2. Re-learn the fingering in Bb (Open position = Bb)

What way would you go? Have you had this problem or concern with transposing or re-learning other fingerings? I would like to know your opinion about this issue.

All the best,
Sam

[davewerden]

Welcome to the forum!

Could you tell us why you want open to be C? Is it because you have really good relative pitch or perfect pitch? Or is it a visual thing, where you see a C and want to play open?

If it is the 2nd reason, then you could learn a euphonium easily if you learned it in treble clef. When a part is in treble clef euphonium, it is transposed so that you see a written C and play it open. But it will still sound as a B-flat. So in treble clef euphonium music, a C scale is fingered just as it was on tuba.

[acronias]

Hi,

Thank you. It is an honor to be part of this forum. I learned so much reading your posts.

I have several concerns with transposing. One is kind of ideological. If I am playing C, why does it have to sound Bb? It makes more sense to me that if I play C, it has to sound concert pitch C, like in a CC Tuba.

The other is more practical.I see the trombone as my main instrument, so I am worry that if I begin playing a Bb euphonium, my pitch in the trombone will suffer.

Best,
Sam

[davewerden]

Well, if your main instrument is trombone, you are already dealing with a mis-match. Trombone is a Bb instrument, but it plays concert pitch bass clef. So you see a C and you play a note that sounds as a C. However, the fundamental note of the trombone is Bb, in first position. If that is all comfortable, then you could learn euphonium by relating fingerings to positions, like this:

1st position	= open
2nd position	= 2nd
3rd position	= 1st
4th position	= 1st and 2nd
5th position	= 2nd and 3rd
6th position	= 1st and 3rd
7th position	= all 3 valves

[TD517]

I had a similar issue when I took Trumpet method in college. I played Bass Clef, so open was Bb. Instead of trying to learn new 'names' to the fingerings, I thought it was wiser to transpose down a whole step on sight. It worked for 7-8 weeks, but wouldn't have worked if I wanted to actually play.

If you're stubborn (like me) and can't get "C fingerings" out of your head, Treble Clef may be the best option. The Trombone position trick Dave mentioned is great too, if you can break the mental block.

[daruby]

I don't understand the original poster's issue. If it is that he has to play transposed treble clef parts (in Bb) then as a trombone player, just pretend you are reading tenor clef and add in a couple of flats. I am not an accomplished trombone player, but when I do play, I do the position = fingering thing. I started on concert pitch bass clef so my brain ALWAYS treats a written Bass C, Tenor C, or Treble D as a fingered concert C (1st valve, 1-3, or 4). No matter what, like the OP, I never think of the open concert Bb on the horn as a "C" regardless of clef.

[franz]

I started playing a brass at the age of seven with the Genis (Eb alto horn),so I learned to play it in treble clef; at sixteen I moved to the euphonium keeping the same key and relative positions on the horn. At forty I wanted to learn the trombone: it was my intention to learn it in treble clef, but my teacher insisted that I learn it in bass clef, and so I was. Now when I play the euphonium I read in TC ( third space C, no Keys pressed), while with the trombone the same note is Bb ( first position, BC). I have no difficulty calling the same sound with two different names, simply when play euphonium within in "euphonium mode",the same with trombone. I can safely play the parts in TC with the trombone ( tenor key, reading a tone below + 2 b), well also the alto key(a tone above + 2#), while if I have to treasure from BC with euphonium is more difficult for me (mezzosoprano key).

[acronias]

Hello everybody,

Thanks for your responses.

As I said, I transposed before when I played euphonium. So I don't have any difficulty reading Bass Cleff, or Treble Cleff with the euphonium. But being a little bit stubborn, and probably not making a lot of sense to some, I would prefer to play an euphonium tuned in C where a I will finger a C with an open position. Unfortunately, there are not many quality C euphoniums available. There are same C valve trombones, though, but they are very uncomfortable to hold for a long time, in my experience.

I am going to try the system suggested for Mr. Werden, and see If it works for me and I don't get confuse with the Tuba fingering. I also noticed that Arban (at least, mine) shows you the fingering for baritone horn where Open positon = Bb. That may help.

Please, keep posting your experiences and opinions. I am still thinking what way to go.

Thanks again for your help.

Sam

[iiipopes]

I don't know of any really good euphoniums that have either good tone, intonation or good pitch as "C" instruments. OTOH, even many "student" model Bb euphoniums have good tone, pitch and intonation. The best thing to do is what I did when I switched back and forth from playing trumpet in concert band and sousaphone in marching band in school: just learn it and do it, as Dave has set forth.

[MichaelSchott]

Hello everybody,

Thanks for your responses.

As I said, I transposed before when I played euphonium. So I don't have any difficulty reading Bass Cleff, or Treble Cleff with the euphonium. But being a little bit stubborn, and probably not making a lot of sense to some, I would prefer to play an euphonium tuned in C where a I will finger a C with an open position. Unfortunately, there are not many quality C euphoniums available. There are same C valve trombones, though, but they are very uncomfortable to hold for a long time, in my experience.

I am going to try the system suggested for Mr. Werden, and see If it works for me and I don't get confuse with the Tuba fingering. I also noticed that Arban (at least, mine) shows you the fingering for baritone horn where Open positon = Bb. That may help.

Please, keep posting your experiences and opinions. I am still thinking what way to go.

Thanks again for your help.

Sam

I have to admit that I am confused but when you refer to open position being Bb, it is just that. It is Bb concert. Play a Bb on a C instrument and it's that written note (Ab concert). Play a Bb concert on a Bb instrument and it's open, no valves down. If you want a written C on a Bb instrument, read it in treble clef.

As said above, a C pitched euphonium or baritone is a rare bird indeed. We all play Bb horns and read either treble or bass clef. I read both but 99% of the time treble as I play in a brass band where all the parts save the bass trombone are written in treble clef.

[ghmerrill]

I've always felt that just learning the "right" fingering was a lot less trouble, and more reliable, than learning to play via transposition. It's like learning a new language (it IS learning a new language). If you have to speak it through some intermediate "translation" step, you're sunk. Don't learn some goofy trick that will just get in your way. I absolutely can't play trombone by trying to associate slide positions with valve combinations. I tried that, and it was miserable. Same for Eb vs. BBb tuba or Bb euphonium. At least that's my experience.

[iiipopes]

Here is why it is important to learn both concert pitch bass clef fingerings and transposed treble clef fingerings: when I was a junior in high school, I volunteered to play baritone horn (yes, a good old standard King bell front three valves) in summer band camp. The volunteer passing out music asked me which folder - treble or bass? I said either. That was too much. They insisted on one or the other. Well, I said instead, send back both. It is a good thing I did, because some parts were different from treble to bass clef, and being the only player in section, I had to go back and forth depending on which concert piece was being played and what the conductor wanted. OK, I only volunteered to play baritone horn to save my trumpet chops for co-first chair in the jazz band section. But playing both folders, helping the other campers, putting a small group together for the midweek "talent show" (read: burn off excess energy), all got me camper of the year award.

Yes. Just learn both and be done with it. Now, forty years later, I am still reading both clefs, and even some other transposing parts, as on Bb trumpet when playing out of church hymnals and otherwise. So to reiterate: get a good standard Bb horn and just learn the fingerings in both clefs and how to set the slides to keep everything in tune. One day you will be playing standard bass clef concert band literature; the next day you may be playing British style brass band or "baritone treble clef" (for those converted from trumpet) transposed treble clef parts. And so it goes.

[Radar]

I've played both CC and BBb Tuba as well as Bass and Tenor Trombone, and Euphonium. The CC or BBb issue can be a little confusing since I play a CC Tuba in Concert Band, but play a BBb Sousaphone for Marching. It takes me a few scales to get set in my mind which fingerings I need to use. I actually find it easier to go between Treble clef and Bass clef Euphonium since the change in clef seems to automatically switch my fingerings from one key to the other. Personally as a Trombone player as Dave Werden suggested if you want to play Bass clef Euphonium just equate the slide positions to valve combination to get you started. Keep in mind that the sound concept on Euphonium isn't the same as Trombone. On Euphonium you generally want to shoot for a broad resonant darker sound (listen to some good euphonium players like Dave who has a lot available on youtube), on Tenor Trombone you want a more focused piercing or directional sound. When I play trombone I have the mental picture of hitting a spot on the back of the auditorium with my sound, when I play Euphonium or Tuba I think of my sound filling the entire room. It's hard to explain in words but by listening to good trombone and Euphonium players you'll hear the difference. Many doublers either sound like a trombone player trying to play Euphonium or their trombone playing sounds like a slide Euphonium. The best way to learn Euphonium fingerings from Trombone is to get yourself a good beginners band Method and just start working your way through it from the beginning. You'll find you breeze through the first book or two, and pick it up relatively quickly, just keep in mind that you need to practice both instruments with sound concept in mind. Many professional orchestral trombone players also double on the Euphonium for those occasional orchestral pieces that require one, if you practice both you can play both.

[iiipopes]

The best way to learn Euphonium fingerings from Trombone is to get yourself a good beginners band Method and just start working your way through it from the beginning. You'll find you breeze through the first book or two, and pick it up relatively quickly, just keep in mind that you need to practice both instruments with sound concept in mind. Many professional orchestral trombone players also double on the Euphonium for those occasional orchestral pieces that require one; if you practice both you can play both.

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