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Thread: I like my Yamaha 621s baritone but

  1. I like my Yamaha 621s baritone but

    I think I pull slides and empty spit valves more than with any other horn, including several euphoniums, that I have ever played. I want to play a 3+1 baritone and not spend a lot, so a Schiller seems to be the best option.
    I'd appreciate comments from anyone who has played a Schiller 3+1 baritone. Thanks.

    LittleJimmy

    Yamaha 621s baritone

  2. #2
    There are three pieces of the problem: input, restriction, and output.

    1. Input: As far as I know, there is no particular design flaw that would cause moisture to build up more quickly in a horn. Most of us have trouble when the air is moist and/or when it is cold, because we get more condensation naturally. The thickness of the metal can affect this more than one might expect. A lighter horn will warm to your breath more quickly and will then stop condensing so much. But a thicker metal can take a loooong time to warm up.

    2. Restriction: Some horns have "traps" that are due to tight corners or low spots in the airstream. In such cases a given amount of water will gurgle sooner or more easily.

    3. Output: On another thread we talked about making sure that you really are emptying the horn when you intend to. There actually is a little technique to it, so you might look for that thread.

    In terms of advice for this thread, I'd start with #3. There are habits we can get into that run counter to getting the water out, and I have fallen into some of them myself.

    If the problem is a physical trap, where there is a low spot not served by a water key, could you have a repair tech add a water key? I'm basing that suggestion on the fact that you are otherwise happy with your horn.
    Last edited by davewerden; 01-19-2018 at 07:08 AM.
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    Alliance Mouthpiece (DC3)
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  3. The Schiller is one of various brands that are mostly made in the same Chinese factory. They are modelled on the Yammy, which was originally modelled on the B&H/Besson. I do not think you are going to gain anything by changing horns, unless what you are looking for is a horn of your own. Your initial post implies you are using a band- or school-issued horn. If you are looking for your own baritone horn, I suggest you review the Wessex, as they generally have some design tweaks and better quality control for the money.

  4. #4
    As iiipopes mentioned, the Schiller is a pretty much part-for-part copy of the YBH-621, so I think you will have identical problems. Wessex had a four-valve compensating baritone prototype a few years ago which was similar to the besson prestige, but with some fairly substantial differences. It was promising, but something was wrong with it and it didn't play well at all. It never showed up for sale as a generally available model. The prestige has a larger bore than the tiny (non-Neo) yamahas, so water is a little less of a problem.

    But, to some extent, they all do that. It's the nature of the beast.
    Last edited by bbocaner; 01-18-2018 at 10:14 AM.
    --
    Barry

  5. I have the Wessex B140. I've encountered the same problem. I empty the horn often, and occasionally I have to spin the horn clockwise to get all the spit out. A bit of a problem, but I like the horn so much I just put up with it.

    KKORO

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Varese,Italy
    Posts
    385
    I have a 373 JP Sterling and I have the same problem. I think it is a fact common to all baritones due to the narrower and twisted tubes than the euphoniums.It is enough to empty the water often whit the appropriate keys; it is a annoyance, but get used to it.
    2007 Besson Prestige 2052, 3D+ K&G mouthpiece; JP373 baritone, 4B modified K&G mouthpiece; Bach 42GO trombone, T4C K&G mouthpiece; 1973 Besson New Standard 3 compensated valves, 3D+ K&G modified mouthpiece; Wessex French C tuba, 3D+ K&G modified mouthpiece.

  7. Every British style baritone I've played has required me to rotate the horn clockwise to get all the water out. It appears to be a "feature" of the instrument!

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Indianapolis area
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    Jimmy...I've owned a 621 for many years, and have to empty it frequently. Yes, rotation is a must.
    Perhaps it's a curse the 621 has placed upon me because I use it mainly to play French Horn parts in a brass quintet.
    But seriously...the 621 is a moisture trap. I've just learned to live with it.
    Having said that, I believe the problem is common to every baritone I have played, looked at, or thought about looking at, including a friend's Schiller.
    Bigger Jimmy

    PS: FWIW, Friedrich Schiller was a German novelist, poet, doctor, and all-around smartypants. His baritone playing, however, remains an undocumented mystery.
    Last edited by Snorlax; 01-18-2018 at 03:25 PM.

  9. Hi all,

    Yes baritones must be emptied frequently.

    The issue is that the tubing diameter is MUCH smaller than a euphonium, the condensation will reach the "glug-glug" stage in these skinny little tubes pretty quickly. AND you have 9 feet of primary tubing in about the same space as an Eb tenor/alto horn. Thus there is a secondary wrap after the tuning slide that collects water and does not have a drain. This causes the "rotation" that is required to empty water that collects after the drain in the main tuning slide..

    When playing baritone in the New England Brass Band, I empty my baritone after EVERY selection, or in between movements on longer selections. This includes dumping all of the valve slides and pulling the tuning slide and "spinning". On euphonium, I would empty probably every 3rd selection and would just use water keys and/or a quick slide pull.

    EVERY baritone player I know has to do this. The 4 valve horns are even harder to deal with since they have a lot more places to catch water and still have the darn double wrap requiring the spin.

    Doug
    Adams E3 0.60 Sterling bell - Prototype top sprung valves
    Concord Band
    Winchendon Winds
    Townsend Military Band

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Smoketown, Pa
    Posts
    233
    [QUOTE=davewerden;144362]There are three pieces of the problem: input, restriction, and output.

    1. Input: As far as I know, there is no particular design flaw that would cause moisture to build up more quickly in a horn. Most of us have trouble when the air is moist and/or when it is cold, because we get more condensation naturally. The thickness of the metal can affect this more than one might expect. I lighter horn will warm to your breath more quickly and will then stop condensing so much. But with a thicker metal can take a loooong time to warm up.

    Dave I can attest to the fact about thicker metal taking a long time to warm up. I found that out the hard way because during a performance, the tuba player and I were doubling the same part and we became more out of tune with each other as the performance went on. After all these years of playing, I never realized that this horn I have now takes that long to warm up.
    B&S 3046 Baritone/Euphonium
    Wessex Festivo
    B&S PT37-S
    Schilke ST20 Tenor Trombone
    Jupiter XO Double valve bass trombone

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