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Thread: Partials - am I cheating physics?

  1. #1

    Partials - am I cheating physics?

    Thought someone on here might be able to explain something that I don't quite understand -

    I'm going to talk in Bb treble clef as that is easier for me. So I have Mr Werdens fingering guide and I have also checked out some other sources and all are clear on the notes that are possible using each valve combination. Here are the fingerings I am actually using at the moment:

    All above the treble clef stave - G-0, Ab-23, A-12, Bb-1, B-2, C-0, Db-3, D-3, Eb-2, E-0,

    The eagle-eyed of you will of noticed the strange one............D-3. When I do this it is flat but useable for the most part. It slots in for me on 3rd far easier than it does on either 0 or 1st.

    Now I should say that C is comfortable but anything above that is a push for me so I don't for a moment imagine that i'm centering the overtone but even so I can't find anyone that documents that it is possible to play a D using 3 (12) as a valve combination. As I go from Db to D there is definately a "step" up by around a semi-tone in pitch so I don't believe that I am simplely lipping the Db up. I also don't think that this is Euphonium brand specific as I could do the same thing on my old Euphonium (playing a Neo 642 atm).

    I'd be quite interested if a few of you could give it a go yourselves and give some feedback, I guess it could be that it is so flat as to be unusable and i'm kidding myself that it's a useable note but even so I would think it is close enough to be on the guides.

    If I understand the physics correctly the implication of this would be that theres a hidden 10th and 1/2 partial (in the unlikely event that this is true I reserve the right to name it after myself)!

  2. #2
    Above the staff, you're not cheating physics. The higher you go, the closer together the notes in the harmonic series. Let's look at the harmonic series for the 3rd valve (with pitch names in Bb Treble, starting from the bottom):

    1. Pedal A (2nd A below the staff)
    2. A below the staff
    3. 1st line E
    4. 2nd space A
    5. 3rd space C#
    6. 4th space E
    7. top of staff G.

    Notice how all the notes are getting closer together? Now, let's start with ledger line A above the staff and work up:

    8. A
    9. B
    10. C#
    11. a pitch halfway between D and Eb
    12. E
    13. a sharp F (almost halfway to F#)
    14. G
    15. G#
    16. A

    What's happening is you're actually dragging the 11th harmonic down to a D. As you get stronger in the upper register, you'll be more prone to pushing this note sharp and the conventional fingerings will likely work better for you.
    Adrian L. Quince
    Composer, Conductor, Euphoniumist
    www.adrianquince.com

    Kanstul 976 - SM4U

  3. The Db two ledger lines and a space above the staff in transposed treble clef notation can be fingered 2nd valve or like the Db an octave below. The D can be fingered open as the 9th harmonic of the C harmonic series, or 1st valve as the octave 5th harmonic of the Bb series, or 1+3 like the D two octaves below. Fingering Db (C#) 3rd valve is the octave of the fifth partial of the A harmonic series, so yes, it will be flat. The Harmonic you think you are playing D with 3rd valve is the sharp 11th harmonic of the A harmonic series, and that is really not a usable fingering for that note, unless you have a node at a particular spot in the horn which tempers its pitch.

    May I suggest you try to use the more conventional fingerings and see how everything works: 2nd ledger line C - open; C#/Db - 2; D - open or 1; D#/Eb - 2; E - open; F - 1; F# - 2; G - open. Once you get up that high above the staff, as posted above, the overtones of the respective harmonic series are so close together and the nodes in the horn are so close together that sometimes alternate fingerings are necessary; sometimes not even the ones that you would think would work, as is your experience with the Db and D. After you have worked on the chromatic upper range to make sure you have good embouchure and breath control, then you can see if the conventional fingerings work. At that point, if you find one that may not, then experiment.

  4. #4
    There are couple "desperation" fingerings in use, even by pros. In a conversation among Steve Mead, Neal Corwell, Brian Bowman, John Mueller, and myself, there was general agreement that sometimes it works well to use 2 on the treble clef E above the staff. I have used it in the past, and might try it now if I were just "touching" the note in a context where I could not lock in on the pitch because of context.

    For the D, have you tried 13? That's a little sharper than the traditional 1 or 0, but is in the general realm of usable.
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    Alliance Mouthpiece (DC3)
    YouTube: dwerden
    Facebook: davewerden
    Twitter: davewerden
    Instagram: davewerdeneuphonium

  5. #5
    Thanks for the replies. Just for the background I originally found that the D would work using '3rd' by accident as I mispitched a Db in a band pratice and was intriged as to what note I had just mutilated the cord with.

    Quote Originally Posted by adrian_quince View Post

    11. a pitch halfway between D and Eb

    What's happening is you're actually dragging the 11th harmonic down to a D. As you get stronger in the upper register, you'll be more prone to pushing this note sharp and the conventional fingerings will likely work better for you.
    None of the charts I have seen list this as the 11th partial (I guess because the theoretical frequency isn't near a standard note frequency). If this is correct then I think you are probably correct and this is what I am doing. It's strange that it's flatter than using the normal fingerings of 'open' or '1st' though as if I'm dragging this harmonic down i'd expect to drag those down as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by iiipopes View Post
    May I suggest you try to use the more conventional fingerings and see how everything works: 2nd ledger line C - open; C#/Db - 2; D - open or 1; D#/Eb - 2; E - open; F - 1; F# - 2; G - open. Once you get up that high above the staff, as posted above, the overtones of the respective harmonic series are so close together and the nodes in the horn are so close together that sometimes alternate fingerings are necessary; sometimes not even the ones that you would think would work, as is your experience with the Db and D. After you have worked on the chromatic upper range to make sure you have good embouchure and breath control, then you can see if the conventional fingerings work. At that point, if you find one that may not, then experiment.
    That was my starting point for those notes and on other Euphoniums I have played the Db slots best on '2nd' but on my Neo it slots much easier on '3rd'. Originally my preference for D was 'open' which worked fine but I was having difficulty on a couple of quick slurred runs that ended with C to D and I just couldn't lip the 'open to 'open'. I tried 'open' to '1st' but found that really hard to slot. So I started using '3rd' for the D and found it much easier to slot than 'open' or '1st'. As an alternative, more in tune, solution I was using '23' or '1st' for the C and then 'open' for the D last night, doesn't slot as easily but seems to work quite well.

    Quote Originally Posted by davewerden View Post
    For the D, have you tried 13? That's a little sharper than the traditional 1 or 0, but is in the general realm of usable.
    I'll try '13' and '4th' again. I have tried '13' before and disregarded it.

    I'd appreciate if you guys, being more advanced players, could play the D on '3rd' and let me know the outcome (Flat/Sharp, not really there).
    Last edited by EuphoJon; 01-16-2018 at 05:55 AM.

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