Sound differences of Wessex Dolce, Mack Brass, and Schiller Elite Euphoniums

[ricw]

I have been playing a Schiller Elite (nickel finish) I bought based on the general consensus on this forum three years ago or so for a "good starter horn". I chose it because of the good reviews (there didn't seem to be any others even in the running at that time) and the fact it is a 4 valve compensating horn - also recommended here.

I really like the sound, but find I am now looking for something that is even a bit . . . I don't know, darker I guess. I love the rich full sound it has, but think it could be just a bit better. I have been reading all the posts recommending horns now and it seems to be: #1 the Wessex Dolce, something from Mack Brass (not sure of the specific model), a JP274 (Packer?), and the Schiller Elite now a distant forth.

If I replace my horn it has to be another 4 valve compensating horn and I like the 3+1 format of the Elite. Now to my question, which, if any, of these horns has an even richer tone than my Elite? Or is there another horn that meets my wants that is less than $2000?

Thanks!

[dsurkin]

[snip]something from Mack Brass (not sure of the specific model), a JP274 (Packer?), and the Schiller Elite now a distant forth.

Mack Brass makes it easy: they only sell one model of euphonium. It's the JinBao 1150 with stainless steel pistons. Wessex has modified the model 1150 with a few improvements to their own specifications. You may find the silver plating on the Mack Brass and Wessex horns will make a difference in the sound, and both companies are noted for their quality control. However, I think that since they are all based on the JinBao horn (a clone of the Yamaha 641 or 642), they may sound similar.

[Sara Hood]

If I remember correctly, Schiller is also one of the labels or "stencils" applied to horns produced by the JinBao factory. So with all these brands, you are looking at basically the same horns. Yes, some of them have tweaks and improvements as required by the end seller. Some companies, like Wessex, are particularly valued for their improvements and quality control. So you will have to decide whether you are willing to pay extra for that. As always, your mileage may vary and the best thing is to actually "test drive" each horn and see what "sings" to you (smile).
- Sara Hood

[KKORO]

Wessex has thickened the bell on the Dolce. Not sure if the others have gone that route. I would think that would give a bit of a different sound. Also, you have the option of a gold brass bell with the Dolce. When I played the 3 versions of the Dolce (lacquer, lacquer with gold brass bell, and silver) I much preferred the gold brass bell.

Be Well! KKORO

[davewerden]

What mouthpiece are you using?

[JTJ]

What mouthpiece are you using?

Thought the same thing: going with a deeper mouthpiece will move the sound darker, as a general rule.

[ricw]

What mouthpiece are you using?

I am mostly using the one that came with the Schiller Elite, but I also have a Denis Wick 4AL which I think improves the sound. However, it makes it a bit harder for me to play the higher notes - but on the other hand the lower notes are much easier with it. I went back to the original mouthpiece - it is just a bit smaller - thinking it would be better to try and get my lip developed more before going with the larger mouthpiece. But I really like the sound better with the 4AL.

I am a converted trumpet player (played in elementary band). My band instructor said that if I wanted to play in high school, I would need to change to the "baritone" which I did. (He was also the high school band instructor.) I played all through HS and at graduation had to turn in my horn. Never played for the next 35 years or so. About 4 years ago, my wife encouraged me to get a horn so after reading everything I could find on this forum about inexpensive "good" horns I chose the Schiller Elite 4 valve compensating Euphonium which I bought from Jim Laabs. I have loved the horn, it is easy to play, and has given me the ability to play so much lower than I could with the 3 valve "baritone" (turned out to really be an "American" euphonium) I played in HS, which I really love, I mean hitting an octave below middle C (Yes I still play TC, just can't seem to learn BC, I keep turning it into TC in my head so I gave up), and being able to work my way even lower than that is amazing. And no, I don't want to switch to tuba! I like the euphonium.

So, all that to say, I really like the deep rich sound of the lower notes I can now play, and what I can play of the higher notes sound good to, I just don't have the lip for them yet. But I want more. I want more of that richness. I might have the opportunity to switch to a new horn, so If I can, I want to get one that has an even richer tone than the one I have now. My wife has the silver and gold Schiller Elite from the Custom Shop. It is a REALLY nice horn, but the tubing sizes are slightly different than mine and the sound is just a bit brighter to my ear. She thinks they sound the same, and so far, when we play together in the church band, no one seems to be able to tell then apart.

I know from my experience with the two mouthpieces I have how much they can affect the tone of my horn, but when (if) I get a new horn, I would like to start out with one that is as rich and dark (I think it the correct term you all use) as I can get with my limited budget. I can afford around $2000 which I know is not much for a supper euphonium, but I think the $1200 I spent for the Elite was a fantastic deal and am happy with what I got, I just want that little bit more now. And that is why I am asking about these three horns or if anyone know of another that would meet my requirements.

I know that is way more than what you wanted to know, but thought it might help if I explained myself a bit more.

[Eupher6]

Ric, with all that you said, kudos to you for coming back to music. It's an enrichment that fulfills us. For one, I couldn't and didn't stop after school and now I've got all these instruments and not enough time to play them all.

[cochranme]

Dillon 967S. Better than the Besson prestige it’s modeled after imo. Fits in your price range as well and has the classic Besson sound characteristics.

[enhite]

I think that those who suggested trying out different mouthpieces to achieve the darker sound that you want (as opposed to buying a new and very similar instrument) are offering practical advice. A few months ago I tried out a Doug Elliott mouthpiece (103 rim, J8 shank, J cup). It was more "V"shaped than my Wick 4AL and I got a noticeably darker sound on my Adams E2. I don't remember if Mr. Elliott offers returns, but some brass mouthpiece retailers do. DF Music is one that comes to mind (http://www.dfmusicinc.com/Default.asp) I'm certain that there are other mouthpieces out there that would achieve a similar end. It's worth checking them out before investing in a new instrument.

[enhite]

I forget to explain that Doug Elliott makes a variety of mouthpieces for trombone and euphonium. You could certainly discuss with him the sound you want on your instrument and the type of mouthpiece you've been using. He can match a rim, cup and shank that might work. http://www.dougelliottmouthpieces.com/prices.html

[ricw]

I think that those who suggested trying out different mouthpieces to achieve the darker sound that you want (as opposed to buying a new and very similar instrument) are offering practical advice. A few months ago I tried out a Doug Elliott mouthpiece (103 rim, J8 shank, J cup). It was more "V"shaped than my Wick 4AL and I got a noticeably darker sound on my Adams E2. I don't remember if Mr. Elliott offers returns, but some brass mouthpiece retailers do. DF Music is one that comes to mind (http://www.dfmusicinc.com/Default.asp) I'm certain that there are other mouthpieces out there that would achieve a similar end. It's worth checking them out before investing in a new instrument.

OK. So if I do try a different mouthpiece, how do I tell what affect it my or may not have on the sound of my horn? If I start with the 4AL, which direction do I go next? Just what do I look for to help with getting a darker sound?

[davewerden]

I'd suggest trying a Schilke 51D for starters. It's a little narrower than the 4AL but deeper and more cup-shaped, which gives most people a darker, more centered sound.

You could try a Kelly Lexan mouthpiece. They are good and quite cheap. You'll find their 51D on this page:

https://kellymouthpieces.com/kmtrombonelarge/index.asp

[jhfitzsimmons]

My Wessex Dolce came with a Wessex 5G. I've been mainly using a Bach 3G which provides a darker sound then the 5G.