Bass Trombone Tuning Issues

[daviste]

Yes, I know this is a tuba and euphonium forum. I'm just too lazy to make another account on another forum for this post.

Anyways, I was in jazz band today and I was getting really annoyed at myself. More than usual. So I stepped out in the hall to tune my bass trombone. Usually I just move slides around to where it's close enough to sound decent.

This was my first time ever trying to tune my bass trombone with my tuner app. When I get the C in the staff tuned (F trigger, first position), the F below the staff is extremely flat. There are similar tuning issues with the Gb trigger, but I only ever use it for D, Db, C, and B natural below the staff.

I'm starting to believe it has to deal with my embouchure. Maybe it collapses when I start playing lower? I don't really know. Bass trombone is my secondary instrument, and I hardly ever practice it. I play bass tromby in two jazz groups, and I've never noticed any major tuning issues with the ensemble, and nobody ever said anything about it to me.

All thoughts and suggestions are appreciated.

-TJ

[davewerden]

I don't consider myself an expert, and I have not played much bass trombone. But on my symphony tenor with an F attachment (as well as on the 88H I had in the CG Band) the low F is flat with the trigger. When possible I used 6th position instead. I use a 4AL, so maybe with a larger mouthpiece it would have been better.

[Jonahzee]

What Mr. Werden said is spot on! Having your trigger F low in pitch will also make the F valve notes (5th position low D, 6th position Db, 7th position C) easier to reach and is a very common tuning tendency in general among trombonists. I would recommend using the F valve when convenient, but if the F is exposed 6th position would be the way to go. Happy trombone doubling!

[bbocaner]

This is normal, it's not you. Tenor trombone players usually tune the valve to C and then use 6th position for the F. Bass trombone players often tune the valve to F and then play C about half an inch out. It's not easy to go back and forth if you play both! If you have an independent double valve bass trombone, SOME players will tune the first valve to C and then use the second valve in sharp 3rd position for F, or 6th position.

[JasonDonnelly]

This is normal, it's not you. Tenor trombone players usually tune the valve to C and then use 6th position for the F. Bass trombone players often tune the valve to F and then play C about half an inch out. It's not easy to go back and forth if you play both! If you have an independent double valve bass trombone, SOME players will tune the first valve to C and then use the second valve in sharp 3rd position for F, or 6th position.

This. I tune my first valve so that low F is in tune, and I kick out the slide a bit for the C above it. I tune my Gb valve so that, in combination with the F valve, it will produce an in-tune low D around where the C with the trigger is located.

[daviste]

So it's not just me? Now that's a relief. Thanks guys!

[ghmerrill]

Yeah, Barry and Jason have it right. Virtually all bass trombonists tune the F and Gb valves to produce those pitches exactly in fully closed first position (so they should be in tune at the bottom of the staff and the octave higher). But then the horn naturally plays the C and Db above these noticeably sharp. On my horn, it requires only about 1/2-3/4" inch out from first to get those notes in tune. Similarly for the double valve combinations.

Since I use my Gb valve a LOT independently, it's more important for me to tune it independently than to get the F/Gb combination to match anything else, though many people follow the often recommended goal of having the double valve combination match up close to a pitch or pitches with the open horn or F horn in 4th position.

I (and I THINK others) tend to use the double valve combinations relatively infrequently. But there's a lot of personal preference among bass trombonists in how the valve are used (more so on independent valve basses). And there are several different tunings possible (F/Gb, F/G, F/flat G, and even some other more bizarre ones). The schools of thought are (1) Play as much as you can without using the valves, and only use them when "necessary"; (2) You have them, so use them; and (3) Somewhere in between. I started out thinking I'd subscribe mostly to (1), but have discovered that I'm pretty firmly in the (2) camp (modulo some considerations of tone quality in some cases).

If you really find yourself being drawn to the dark side of bass trombone, get ahold of "New Method for the Modern Bass Trombone" by Eliezer Aharoni. It's not that easy to get and takes a while (I think I ordered mine through Hickey's). But it lays out in exhaustive detail all the tuning possibilities and inclinations of the instrument. Plus containing a lot of useful exercises for each of the tunings.

For basic fun and useful exercises, I like the Tommy Pederson books like "Elementary Etudes for Bass Trombone". Vastly superior to anything else I've seen.

[daviste]

Neat stuff Gary! Just out of curiosity, what notes do you use your Gb trigger for? You say you use it a lot independently, so is it mostly Db and Gb in the staff? The only time I use mine is for D, Db, sometimes C, and B natural, all below the staff. I try to avoid it because it's quite stuffy and I don't really like the sound.

[ghmerrill]

Neat stuff Gary! Just out of curiosity, what notes do you use your Gb trigger for? You say you use it a lot independently, so is it mostly Db and Gb in the staff? The only time I use mine is for D, Db, sometimes C, and B natural, all below the staff. I try to avoid it because it's quite stuffy and I don't really like the sound.

On rereading your last post, I'm uncertain whether you are playing a dependent or independent dual rotor horn. What I have to say applies to INDEPENDENT valve bass trombones. With a dependent system, you have fewer options and can't use the second (normally Gb) valve by itself.

Keeping in mind that "real trombonists" (of which I am not one) may disagree with at least some of this ...

There will be some individual differences and preferences in cases like this. Let me mention one that affects me.

I have fairly severe shoulder arthritis. It generally doesn't bother me -- even with intense activity of various sorts -- but playing a valveless tenor trombone for even about 20 minutes becomes torture with pain that takes the better part of a day to disappear. A lot of movement into and out of 6th and 7th position is just deadly for me. So I may try to avoid those positions more than other people might. However, that being said, ...

I've discovered that the more I play (and I really am exclusively playing bass trombone now), the more I use the F and the Gb valves in the staff. Let's use Aharoni's notation for indicating positions: Numbers by themselves (1, 2, 3, ...) indicate the position on the open horn (no valve in use). Numbers followed by a 'V' indicate a position using the F Valve, and numbers followed by an S indicate a position using the "second valve" (let's assume it's a Gb valve), and numbers followed by a 'D' indicate positions using both (Double) valves (which we'll assume is an F/Gb = D) combination.

So the usual C in 1st position on the F valve is notated as '1V', and the Db in first position on the Gb valve is notated as '1S'. The C natural below the staff is notated as '3D', and the B natural as '4D'. Notice that Aharoni's approach to this is QUITE DIFFERENT from the common one. In Aharoni's approach, each individual horn (Bb/open, F, Gb, and D) has it's own set of positions -- which you need to learn -- and positions with the valves are not indicated as a "position on the open horn + an offset" (like C in the staff is a "flat 1st position with F valve") . On that more common approach, the B-natural below the staff would be notated as some kind of very flat 5th position -- but in fact it is the actual 4th position on the D horn. I really very much prefer Aharoni's way of thinking about it because it simplifies things greatly. Positions with the valves aren't treated as some "adjusted" positions on the open horn, but as exact positions on THAT (F, Gb, or D) instrument. So anyhow, with that notational convention in place ...

Using the valves is not just about 1st position (though I suspect a lot of amateur trombonists pretty much focus on this). There are intervals and passages that are more easily played on the Gb horn than on the Bb or the F horn. For example, I'm looking at the last few measures of our arrangement of the Finale to The New World Symphony we were playing recently, and there's a descending quarter-note measure of D/B/A/F#. This entire measure is most easily played as 3-3S-2-1S. The alternatives are just clumsier.

In Minor Alterations, there's a passage that begins with a gliss up to Db in the staff followed by the C just below it and the F at the bottom of the staff. These are half notes in cut time at 96. This passage is most naturally played entirely on the Gb valve: 1S (for the gliss from Ab to Db)/2S/2S. Sure, you could play the last two notes (C and F) in either 7th position on the open horn or 1st position on the F horn, but why switch valves or positions when you don't have to?

There are places in The Rakes of Mallow where you're just doing 1/8-note beats alternating either between Db/C or D/A. In the first case, I find it easier to play both on the Gb valve (1S/2S), and in the second case using the F valve for the A (4/4V). But you might find a more conventional approach to the second case easier.

In the first movement of the Holst 2nd Suite, I find ("bass trombone" part) those quarter/eighth note measures that go from D down to F and back up to C to be more easily played entirely on the F valve except for the initial D.

Basically, I'm finding that there are just a lot of places between the F at the bottom of the staff and the D in the staff where the Gb valve is a good choice in order to minimize slide movement or change of slide direction. But like I say: a lot of this will depend on your own preferences and skills. Aharoni's book also illustrates such things in it's exercises, but with more of an orientation towards orchestral playing.

I think that if I were a professional trombonist, I would in fact switch my valves so that the Gb valve is the "first" (thumb) valve and the F is the "second" valve. In general, I find the Gb valve to be somewhat more versatile than the F.

The notes on the valves should not be stuffy. If the horn is leak-free and the valves are adjusted correctly (you MUST check this, and it's easy to do), and it's a reasonably designed horn (geez, I'm playing on a $550 Chinese knock-off!), it should not be "stuffy" in the valves. What you WILL encounter is some "resistance", but tone quality should be good and not problematic. If not, check valve adjustment and leaks. Then experiment with mouthpieces. My horn plays very well, once I replaced the lead pipe and found the right mouthpiece. Finding the right mouthpiece took me months -- and also took just getting better at trombone. I now have a fully resonant range all the way down through the double valve register and through the pedal register to the F an octave below the staff. With some effort I can get lower, but the lowest note I've encountered a demand for in band music is the G that's the octave below the staff (Hymn for the Fallen -- killer bass trombone part).

Again, "real bass trombonists" may disagree with some of this. But I find the bass trombone to be quite a different instrument in certain ways than the tenor trombone, and it pays off to look at your parts, think about them very carefully, and try different approaches to valves and slide positions.

[Davidus1]

If it is possible for you I would highly recommend finding a teacher who can help you through these things. Using a dependent or independent system requires a little 'strategy" and a teacher can help you through that process. I wish you well.

[daviste]

Sadly, there aren't any private teachers near me, but I wish there were. But I am on an independent bass trombone. I might have to give that book a shot, Gary. There's a lot more to this whole "playing bass trombone" thing than I thought.

[ghmerrill]

I think it's best to regard the bass trombone as a different instrument from a tenor trombone -- not just as a larger bore tenor with an extra valve. And I'm not alone in this. The range and the repertoire impose demands that aren't found in the case of the tenor, and the double valves (either independent or dependent) provide alternatives not found in the tenor -- at least some of which should be used.

If you're an experienced brass musician, know what sound you want, and have the time to put in, you can definitely get a long way by yourself. And nowadays there are a lot (perhaps too many for a beginning student to sort through?) of technique books and online sources available (including YouTube). I'm not at all disparaging taking lessons, but sometimes that's difficult for people to do for various reasons and in certain circumstances, and yet you can still progress. If you think about it, that's what these books are for and why they've been written (it's interesting to compare them, for example, to Arban's -- which I think is much more useful WITH an instructor to take you through it in some coherent way). Finally, you don't really need a teacher who is NEAR you. Doug Elliott is happy to provide lessons via Skype, and people rave about the results. I keep thinking that when I get "a little better", I should do that -- but haven't done so yet.

Here are a couple of things to look at in addition to the Aharoni book:

Doug Yeo's web site: http://www.yeodoug.com/. There's just a wealth of information, experience, and perspective here -- and pointers to other sources. He also discusses the ergonomics of the bass trombone, which is one of the thorniest problems any bass trombonist needs to deal with. You can't play well if it's painful to hold the instrument or you're struggling to balance it. Alas, to some degree the solution to this is idiosyncratic. It took me at least six months to find my own solution (which involves the use of an Edwards Bullet Brace + wine cork, removing the finger ring under the mouthpiece receiver, and replacing it with a hook on the other side of that slide support), but now the horn feels perfectly balanced when I hold it, and it's effortless to play. I also somewhat customized the 2nd valve lever by shortening it, changing the angle, and replacing the (typically grossly oversize) finger plate with a 5 centime French coin (about the size of a dime). See the attached photo. Part of the attitude you have to take with a bass is: Don't torture yourself to "get used to" holding an impossibly uncomfortable instrument; modify the instrument so that you can hold it comfortably.


Blair Bollinger's book: http://www.hickeys.com/music/studio/...s-trombone.php. I'm recommending this as a source without having read it, but partly because I know what perspective it presents. Bollinger is one of the most vocal of the "You've got two valves -- so use them!" school of thought. And he uses a peculiar tuning (referred to as the "Bollinger tuning"). I also note that in the description of this book, the publisher says "If you are a bass trombonist, and you do not routinely use your second valve MORE than your first, then you should check out this book." Since that's the perspective I've come to independently, I think I should get the book myself. It is specifically "For instruments with two independent valves".

[daviste]

That's a pretty neat little rig you have there!

If you're an experienced brass musician, know what sound you want, and have the time to put in, you can definitely get a long way by yourself. And nowadays there are a lot (perhaps too many for a beginning student to sort through?) of technique books and online sources available (including YouTube). I'm not at all disparaging taking lessons, but sometimes that's difficult for people to do for various reasons and in certain circumstances, and yet you can still progress.

This statement is almost too relatable. I've never had a private lesson, and I have indeed come a long way on my own. But all of that happened on euphonium.

I'm auditioning for All-State Jazz here in a couple of weeks, so I'm starting to get more serious about the bass trombone. If I can expand on the fundamentals a little bit more, I should have a pretty decent shot at getting in.

I have the Arban's book as well as a few others, but one more wouldn't hurt. The only issue I have with holding my bass trombone is that if I play for a certain amount of time, the part of my hand between the palm and the "bottom" of my thumb gets sore and cramped. My Gb trigger hardly ever gets used.

[JasonDonnelly]

The only issue I have with holding my bass trombone is that if I play for a certain amount of time, the part of my hand between the palm and the "bottom" of my thumb gets sore and cramped. My Gb trigger hardly ever gets used.

Consider investing in a hand rest. Sheridan Get-A-Grip, Rath, and the Edwards bullet brace are all solid options.

As you play more and more, try and see if you can use the Gb trigger in some alternate positions. Personally, I play plenty of C3s with the Gb trigger in around third position, and sometimes the B natural right below it, too.

[ghmerrill]

I have the Arban's book as well as a few others, but one more wouldn't hurt. The only issue I have with holding my bass trombone is that if I play for a certain amount of time, the part of my hand between the palm and the "bottom" of my thumb gets sore and cramped. My Gb trigger hardly ever gets used.

If it's "one more", then I'd more strongly recommend the Peterson "Elementary Etudes for Bass Trombone". It's not a "lesson" or "technique" book, but the etudes -- as exercises -- are fantastic and specifically directed towards the bass trombone. Also, it's cheap. However, it's possibly the best etude book (of any kind) that I've seen. Very pretty etudes that are realistic in terms of what they require and prepare you for in reading bass trombone music. They also will force you (or maybe humiliate you, at least for a while) to focus on tone quality and control. They aren't hard to "play". But they're pretty difficult to play with good tone and musicality. You would use this a lot more than you would Aharoni (which is more of a reference work). I'm getting to the point that I may move on to the "Advanced" version (for some reason the "Intermediate" is impossible to find and seems to no longer be in print).

In terms of the hand getting sore and cramped: welcome to the world of bass trombone playing. Take a look on the tromboneforum and you'll see a litany of complaints. I think Doug Yeo says somewhere that the bass trombone wasn't designed for humans to play. Like I said, it took me months and some instrument modifications to work it out. In fact, one reason I bought such an inexpensive horn was so I could experiment with it in that way and not feel bad if I munged it up cosmetically. Over 20 years ago I had a Holton TR-181 (Holton's big double-valve independent bass -- with a 10" bell.) I never learned how to play it well, and part of that was just the ergonomics (which wasn't helped by the big bell and front-heavy result). It took me at least 3 months just to get the bullet brace adjusted well for me, and it ultimately required putting a wine cork on the bar -- which was otherwise just too small a diameter to provide the comfortable support necessary. This solved the problem you describe with that area of the hand getting sore and cramped. It's now actually now more pleasant to play (because better balanced) than my 1947 Olds Standard straight tenor. I go through hour and a half rehearsals each week without any problems at all.

Regarding the Gb trigger: if it doesn't just naturally sit at the end of your middle finger (i.e., if you have to stretch AT ALL to use it, or twist your hand), then you should do what's necessary to adjust it. If the horn is yours, this isn't a problem. If it's a school horn, then you probably can't.