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Thread: Is college worth it?

  1. #11
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    My advice, too, is have a backup plan. I majored in math (considered music), but I also did not graduate from college until 13 years after high school. I did 3 years in the Army after high school, then two years of college (math major, played in band), then auditioned for the U.S. Army Band in Washington and played there for 6 years, then back to college and finally finished my degree. Years later I got a masters in computer science. I played in a top level band in Washington, but getting in one of those requires a ton of dedication and a bit of good fortune (timing, how many audition and who, etc.). There are also other bands within the services outside of the top level D.C. bands that can be very rewarding. But, those are the main opportunities if you are a euphonium player wanting to play for a living. If your son majors in music, I would strongly suggest something in addition to performance, i.e., music education. Or a double major with music and something "more marketable" such as a science discipline. Also, I have found it very useful to be able to play trombone (or tuba) as well, if euphonium is your main instrument, so if this is something that he can do, I would recommend it, particularly since he wants to major in music.

    Definitely college is a good choice I think for most anyone with the drive, desire, preparation and determination. And I suppose with the financial ability to attend (scholarships or not). Perhaps have your son consider joining one of the services and playing in a military band for one hitch (3 or 4 years). This will give him a golden opportunity to check it out. Also, it will allow him to go to college when he finishes his commitment on the G.I. Bill which will make college considerably easier financially. I was only 17 at high school graduation and not really sure what I wanted to do. The Army for three years gave me some clarification (and some money in my wallet afterwards for college).

    In any event, your son should keep on playing and get as good as he can. Follow his dream. If he really, really wants to play, know that he has a lot of work (enjoyable) to do and that he might be able to find a career playing, but there are clearly no guarantees. And do get that degree with a back up plan if a playing career does not happen.
    Last edited by John Morgan; 09-30-2017 at 06:09 PM.
    John Morgan
    The U.S. Army Band (Pershing's Own) 1971-1976
    Adams E3 Custom Series Euphonium, 1956 B&H Imperial Euphonium,
    1973 F. E. Olds & Son Studio Model T-31 Baritone
    Adams TB1 Tenor Trombone, Yamaha YBL-822G Bass Trombone
    Year Round Except Summer:
    Kingdom of the Sun (KOS) Concert Band, Ocala, FL (Euphonium)
    KOS Brass Quintet (Trombone, Euphonium)
    Summer Only:
    Rapid City Municipal Band, Rapid City, SD (Euphonium)
    Rapid City New Horizons Band (Euphonium)

  2. #12
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    I'll chime in on this from a couple of different perspectives: one is the perspective of a long-time member of the education and university community; and one is as a father of children who have gone through various education programs and are now in their late 30s.

    I went from high school to a very high end private "polytechnic institute" and graduated (as was the custom then) in four years. Then immediately to a very high end private university where I emerged four years later (again, the custom then) with a Ph.D. I then taught for 10 years in a medium-size private university in Chicago, at both the undergraduate and graduate levels, and was given early tenure. Several years after that, I decided to leave academia for a variety of reasons. I got through those programs with an NDEA loan (remember those -- I paid it off over a period of 10 years), work-study (20 hrs/week as an undergraduate), scholarships, and fellowships. My parents had NO money (they's send me $20 now and then; they did what they could). Was my expensive education worth it? Yes, it definitely was. Could it have been done in a less expensive way? Maybe. Not sure.

    My wife likewise has a Ph.D. and taught for several years at the university level. Earlier in her life she was a private middle school science teacher. My daughter just left education after being a public middle school math teacher for 8 years. One son wasted one year in college and then entered the work force. No college degree. When he died last year (at the age of 41: congenital heart condition that eventually got him) he was a high-level IT software automation expert in one of the country's largest successful regional banks. The other son left college after one year, entered the work force, worked for IBM for 15 years and IBM paid for his college over time. After 10 years he got a Computer Science degree. He recently moved to a management/development job at Amazon with an offer that I've never seen the likes of.

    I retain ties with faculty friends in several universities and taught a combined undergraduate/graduate course in 2009. My point here is that I KNOW the educational system and the current state of universities and university education today. I'm not happy with it. I don't think that anyone is happy with it. I won't go into the details here.

    So, my opiniions -- based on that background:

    • You say you think you have a realistic grasp on what it takes to be a professional musician. Well, what it takes to be a PROFESSIONAL musician is to GET WORK -- to MAKE MONEY. It's not something that just happens because you have the right attitude, are talented, and go through one school or another. What do you REALISTICALLY think is his (in fact ANYONE's) chance of GETTING A JOB as a professional musician? Now, once you're honest with yourself about that ...
    • How good an idea do you think it is for a young person (who at this stage very likely doesn't even know what his interests may be in a couple of years or what his talents -- broadly speaking; not just in music -- may be) to saddle himself with a huge debt in order to shoot for that "career in music"? So ...
    • Do NOT commit at this initial point to an expensive and probably debt-ridden deal to get an "education" which very likely (almost certainly) will NOT lead to GETTING WORK. Suppose he gets to college and falls totally in love with some subject area and career path that he's totally unaware of now? I NEVER thought I'd end up the way I did -- at any stage of my education. In part, that was because my knowledge and interests changed; and in part it was because the world changed. What I did for most of my working life simply didn't exist when I graduated from high school. I've seen the same thing happen with my children. It also happened with my wife.
    • Especially do NOT commit to an expensive and probably debt-ridden deal to get an "education" in some relatively "esoteric" area in which what is learned in that education are largely non-transferable skills that will lock you out of a broader job market. My daughter just went through this -- and she has years of experience in teaching along with a "highly qualified" rating on her license for both math and language arts. Yet when she went to get a job outside of teaching, it took her months to find one and she had to take an entry-level support job. It's a good job, and great for upward mobility, but she was getting turned down for virtually everything because her entire experience said "middle school teacher" and didn't display the experience and skills people were looking for. So how well do you think someone with a "music education" would do in trying to find a "real job"?
    • He's "been recruited by professors" ... Yeah, want to know why? (Ex-faculty member speaking here.) There are SO MANY colleges and universities now, and SO MANY programs, and now so many "specialty programs" that competition for students is fierce. And you know what? If you don't have students, then pretty soon you don't have a program. And if you don't have a program, then pretty soon you don't have a job (and tenure won't shield you from that -- the easiest way to get rid of tenured faculty is to close the entire program. I've seen it happen several times.) So don't put much weight on his being recruited. They're desperate for bodies (and the tuition and fees).
    • Almost certainly, no one except a university professor will now recommend that the student or his parents incur substantial debt to send the student to an expensive program. And when they do recommend that, at the same time they won't be sending THEIR children to such programs because they can't afford them. This is the case in general. There are exceptions. E.g., if you're smart and have shown the right talents and have your sights set on being something like a computer scientist, a doctor, a biologist, a chemist, an attorney, etc., then shooting for one of those high-end programs can be (and sometimes must be) an investment. But again ... Guess what? The skills you learn in THOSE programs are TRANSFERABLE and will help you get a job in a broad variety of areas. Not like music, or poetry, or art history.
    • Will an expensive and debt-ridden education in an "amazing program" in music pay off? Possibly. But almost certainly not.


    Those are my views -- just based on experience from both inside and outside the "educational system", and from having had three kids go through it and then find careers. Also, I just run into too many people who were professional musicians (some in the military, some not), who for the obvious reasons just couldn't (through necessity or choice) sustain such a career indefinitely. Not trying to kill the dream here, but keep in mind that many people have careers in music without ever seeing the inside of a university or conservatory. And keep in mind that you can spend a lifetime "in music" without having to depend on it as your financial resource. So if being realistic is the goal, then focus (and focus your son) on being realistic. And realize that you can't buy that music career.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  3. #13
    I am overwhelmed with the great advice and thoughtfulness you've all exhibited. Thank you!

    I will answer a few questions and ask one more of my own for clarity, but I am a musician so this will be more long-winded than necessary ;-)

    First of all, I appreciate the idea of him having a back-up plan, and that's something I have encouraged him to do. This will help further reinforce my message with him. His goal right now is to get a job in a military band, and I believe he can, but channeling my inner Lance LaDuke here, he's concerned with getting there and getting the job, not what the job would entail. I think he would be great in a military band, but I am no expert on it. We have had master classes with many people, including David Childs, Brian Bowman, Adam Frey and several others locally. He currently is taking lessons with Tucker Jolly at Akron.

    He has told me that he can't see himself doing anything but music. He gets good grades, and he's a smart kid, but I really want to caution him to be employable, not just a good musician. I know the message is heard, but I don't think he understands it yet. He's 16, he'll figure it out.

    He originally wanted to go to a small school (Baldwin Wallace University in Berea, Ohio is a great school and they have a wonderful conservatory there), but with his indecision, he is not certain what his major would be. Thankfully, with Demondrae Thurman heading to IU, he is looking at larger schools with more types of opportunities. His band director encourages all his students who move on to study music at the university level to major in education rather than performance since almost every great performer also works as a teacher. I know several music therapists who do wonderful things, and I know several people who are outstanding musicians who became teachers after being discovered for their playing prowess. His journey has to be his own, and I am not making decisions for him. I have not pushed him to go into music (in fact, sometimes I worry I am pushing too hard for him to diversify and have a more realistic career path in front of him), but I will support him in whatever way he chooses to go. *I* worry about the path he is taking being one of a truly informed person, but I trust that he will make the right decision for himself.

    So after taking this all in and thinking about it for a weekend, I want to ask my question in a different way:

    What kind of university is "worth it" when one majors in music? I know that's an impossibly broad question, however, we live very near the world famous Oberlin Conservatory. There are also music programs at the local community college. I wonder if you all think that an aspiring violinist should spend the $70,000 a year to get that Oberlin degree? I mean they have some of the finest training in the world. Should they go to Oberlin? The local State College at 1/3 the price? or Community college for less than a 10th of the price?

    To put it in business terms - is the return on investment worth it?

    We're going to a wonderful event near us (The Oberlin Conservatory of Music 2017 Performing Arts College Fair) next Monday. I know I am overthinking it right now and that it will all work out. We try to make the best possible decisions in life based on the information we have at that time. I really appreciate those of you who have helped this old tubist get the best possible information.
    Last edited by jakewillis; 10-01-2017 at 08:45 PM.
    I play a Wessex Prague
    aka “Pocket Kaiser”
    Stofer Geib Mouthpiece

    My Son plays
    Mack Brass Compensating Euphonium
    Wessex Dolce Compensating Euphonium
    Doug Elliott EUPH SN103, I, I9

  4. #14
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    Indianapolis area
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    Please allow me to second Gary's statements...after 37 years, I am leaving the academic world...I share Gary's unhappiness with the current state of higher education...
    I might add just a couple of points:

    *If your son is THAT good of a player, he can audition for the tuba/euphonium professor, who should be willing to take him as a student, REGARDLESS of major.

    *The band director should also be willing to let your son earn a spot in the wind ensemble by audition, REGARDLESS of major.

    *In fact, questions you ask at the various colleges in your consideration set might include whether the tuba/euphonium professor would be willing to take your son as a student--assuming a good audition, and whether seating in ensembles is by merit or by major. You can eliminate colleges that give unsatisfactory answers to your questions. There are plenty of colleges to go around.

    *I was able to study at Indiana University with Harvey Phillips (who had a studio full of music majors) by introducing myself to him and playing a couple of tunes that he must have liked, though I had no intention to major in music. My relationship with Harvey lasted until his death in 2010 as a performer/business associate with him and continues to this day as a member of the Board of Directors of his Foundation. When my academic schedule permitted, I auditioned for bands and got spots commensurate with my ability.

    *In late 1980, as a result of my own tenacity and Harvey's mentoring, I was a finalist for an opening at the West Point band. I flunked the Army's physical and it was THE BEST THING THAT EVER HAPPENED TO ME.

    *I pursued a career in Business that allowed me to live a comfortable life and help people to improve their life. *Musically, I was able to stay active and involved.

    *Most importantly, my independence from music as a sole source of income allows me to PICK AND CHOOSE the gigs I want to accept. Unlike many of my full-time musician friends, I can pass on a gig if I don't feel like taking it, REGARDLESS of what it pays. There's much to be said for that ability!

    *In many of the "non-professional" ensembles I play with, I am still one of the few non-music majors...what that implies is that there are a great deal of conservatory-trained musicians playing in non-professional groups, so the groups perform at a satisfactorily high level and are rewarding/challenging musical experiences.

    *These days I choose to play in groups that contain people with whom I enjoy keeping company, and groups that perform music I enjoy. All of the groups also let me compose and arrange!

    *I would advise your son NOT to major in music, but to choose a career in STEM or Business-related field and to take as many music electives as his schedule will permit...or just play in every ensemble he can. Additionally, he might find that he has fallen in love with statistics, finance, or accounting!!

    *Frankly, a lot of courses your son will take in college will not be intellectually rigorous and will not demand much time or effort on his part. I recall from my Skype session with him that he is bright and motivated.

    *He will need to develop/refine his time management skills to fit everything in, but those very skills will serve him well in ANY field he chooses to enter after college.

    *If your son DOES decide to major in music, make sure he is well versed in music technology. There is simply no escaping it

    *DO NOT major in anything like "Arts Administration!" The field is overfull with orchestral players who didn't advance at auditions; salaries are therefore low and advancement opportunities few. Additionally, that major tends to be less rigorous than a real business degree...it would be hard for your son to get a job in banking or other business field with such a degree.

    *RATHER: Get a real Business degree and take several internships--one in banking, one in HR, and one with an arts organization. That way there is flexibility and a much less restricted path to the future.

    *Over the years I have known many full-time professional musicians, both free-lancers and symphony players. They were often unhappy/frustrated people, even those with secure positions in orchestras. On the other hand, the "part-timers" I hang around with seem to be fulfilled with their lot in life and play music for the enjoyment and the social benefits.

    *One last comment: One positive consequence of the surfeit of highly-trained musicians is that almost ANY college has a highly-trained tuba-euphonium professor if they have any sort of music program. They've all played in 14 orchestras (at $72 per service) and played backup for pops acts as well.

    *You're welcome to Skype me again or call if you want to discuss further! I enjoyed the original Skype session and would be very willing to share any experience or insight you might find useful!
    Jim
    Last edited by Snorlax; 10-01-2017 at 09:37 PM.

  5. #15
    I wish the situation wasn’t so bleak for music majors... but it seems to me like the basic answer is a resounding “no.”
    I play a Wessex Prague
    aka “Pocket Kaiser”
    Stofer Geib Mouthpiece

    My Son plays
    Mack Brass Compensating Euphonium
    Wessex Dolce Compensating Euphonium
    Doug Elliott EUPH SN103, I, I9

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by jakewillis View Post
    I wish the situation wasn’t so bleak for music majors... but it seems to me like the basic answer is a resounding “no.”
    Hi Jake,

    That's the rub here. Unless your son wants to teach music, it's really hard to support oneself or one's family on just music work.

    Let me share my own experience here. I'll start with where I am now: I consider myself a semi-pro musician. I have a day job (web development) that covers the vast majority of my bills, but I get some nice side income from music.

    Now, about how I got here. I started as a gung-ho music major at eighteen at the local community college. I learned from some wonderful professors, and it was an experience that set me up for success in my current musical endeavors.

    Then I looked at transferring. There was one word that brought my collegiate musical education to a grinding halt: debt. In looking at the job prospects out there and what student loan payments would actually mean, I realized that going into debt for a music degree just wasn't worth it.

    So, I used the technology and professional skills that I'd built up during my time at the community college and managed to get a job as an associate business systems analyst at a local insurance company. A decade later and pursuing a lot of self-study, I wound up making very good money as a programmer. But, that career path certainly wasn't a given and required a lot of luck.

    The nice thing about a day job, echoing Snorlax, is that I get to be a lot more choosy about the music I play and the people I play it with. One of my great musical joys in life is directing a German Band. There really isn't a feeling in the world like leading a band in a beer tent with a thousand people singing drinking songs. But, this band paid way under scale when I first took the job with them. If I'd felt the pressure to use music to pay the bills, I would have passed on something that's become a huge part of my life.

    Conversely, being able to turn down work has kept me out of a few situations where I would have been working with or for jerks. Knowing I dodged those bullets is huge.

    Regarding your son's situation, I have two pieces of advice:

    1. Pursue a breadth of skills in college as well a depth of skills (double majors are great for this)
    2. Unless there is a definite payoff for the degree, don't go into debt for it.

    If your son is good enough to find a school that wants to pay for him to study music, then he certainly should! If he has to go into debt to do it, then he needs to consider what his future holds very carefully.
    Adrian L. Quince
    Composer, Conductor, Euphoniumist
    www.adrianquince.com

    Kanstul 976 - SM4U

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by adrian_quince View Post
    That's the rub here. Unless your son wants to teach music, it's really hard to support oneself or one's family on just music work.
    But also add to this that it's really hard to support oneself by teaching. Certainly this is true if the teaching is limited to giving private or small group lessons. In the case of "teaching jobs" (at whatever level) the salaries are, in general, pathetic, the benefits are virtually non-existent, and the jobs themselves are disappearing. So setting your sights on being a "music teacher" isn't much better, realistically, than trying to go the performance route. Take a look at what music teachers make, and what their benefits are, and you'll see.

    In terms of "What should he do?", I'm of two minds. If he's going to finance it himself (or finance a large part of it himself), then he should really think of his education as an investment (which is a work that is getting repeatedly used here). That means finding an area in which you would be interested in the work available, where there is (and will be) work available, and then getting an education in that area. Does this require going to one of the "top" universities? Not at all. Careful thought and selection can get you as good an education at that level from state-run schools with much lower cost. If you're in Ohio, why not Ohio State? I believe it has a good instrumental music program as well. Spend extra money on private lessons with the sort of professionals you've already mentioned -- much cheaper than full-time tuition at a "top" music school.

    But if he REALLY REALLY wants to go all in on the music performance career route, then shoot for one of the top schools on scholarship. I don't know what the possibilities are here, but I'm thinking that these places must give SOME "merit" scholarships rather than "financial need" scholarships. If they do, then try for something like that. And don't forget to spend a huge amount of time looking for and applying for a bunch of other music scholarships from various organizations, foundations, and societies. That's a lot of work, but think of it as earning the money to pursue the dream. And think of what's reasonable and rational: if you can't get that kind of support for studying for that kind of career, then definitely don't throw your own money down that hole because that will adversely affect your life for decades. In the end, it's a simple risk/benefit analysis -- complicated by some emotional involvement and "the dream".
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  8. #18
    Excellent perspectives in this thread. I don't have too much to add, but wanted to ask about his placement in all-state, etc. type auditions.....that to me is the ultimate measuring stick of where you are in high school. Not everyone auditions well etc., but let's face it you will probably have to perform a successful one at some point. When I was in high school in the 80's I was the hot shot trombonist within a couple of counties of where I grew up in rural VA, and I credited much of that success to having had a few lessons with a former student-turned social worker who had studied with Robert Marsteller and Byron Pebbles. I couldn't imagine doing anything but music performance for a career. The only other course I took in high school that really spoke to me was chemistry, but at the time they only offered a one year standard course in it. So at the start of my senior year of high school, I was thinking of going to school in either music or chemistry so I applied to Universities that seemed to be decent in both and was thinking doing a double major. When I won 1st chair in the regional band, I got to try out for all-state band, and I got in....I was the last place tenor trombonist admitted. When we gathered for the all-state performances I couldn't believe how much more accomplished were the people that placed higher than me. And it is no wonder...most of these guys were taking regular private lessons from Milt Stevens of the National Symphony and the top players from the military bands. It was a very eye opening experience. Realizing what a hyper competitive market I would be facing....there were a dozen orchestras where I could earn a full time salary with at the time (that number is probably half that now) plus the military bands, I came to the conclusion that the odds of me landing one of these premier gigs was fairly low. So, I dropped music as a potential double major and focused my time on chemistry, and I eventually got a Ph.D. in synthetic chemistry. I now work for the government and enjoy music in my spare time. I don't regret my decision. But a key decision point for me was seeing how I really measured up to the other top musicians in my state. If he isn't the top or very close to it in your state, having a back up plan may not be a bad idea if all he wants to do is performance. Take that for what is worth!
    Last edited by euphdude; 10-02-2017 at 02:03 PM.

  9. #19
    I’m still mulling over some additional thoughts, but wanted to chime in on his placements in groups. The Ohio Music Education Association has long been a non- competitive group in terms of its programs. He was in district Band as a sophomore but they didn’t not have seating placement. Same with his conference honors band. He tried out for all-state last year, but it was kind of on a whim. We didn’t know about it until late. He didn’t make it, but his audition was not at all up to his standards. (I still can’t figure out if they wanted his solo accompanied or not in the recordings.) He is currently first chair in the Cleveland Youth Wind Symphony. Tucker Jolly said after his second lesson that he would likely make all-State, but that’s maybe just him being over exuberant? If you know Tucker, he knows low brass

    Next year we won’t make a recording on my computer with a crappy microphone, we will make a better quality one so they can actually hear him play. He has always finished first chair in every audition he has done live. He auditions well in person.

    Speaking as a music teacher with several professional music teachers, therapists, a professor and a professional flute player to my indirect credit, he is probably the best or second best musician I’ve ever had. He is a fine tuba player as well, but I can’t convince him to try trombone.

    I studied with Ivan Hammond at Bowling Green State University, and I got significant scholarship money to attend BGSU in 1992. Logan is way beyond me. Maybe I’ll throw a video up somewhere.
    I play a Wessex Prague
    aka “Pocket Kaiser”
    Stofer Geib Mouthpiece

    My Son plays
    Mack Brass Compensating Euphonium
    Wessex Dolce Compensating Euphonium
    Doug Elliott EUPH SN103, I, I9

  10. #20
    I know it’s not a huge sample, but at the end of his lesson I snuck in and recorded the last few minutes.
    I play a Wessex Prague
    aka “Pocket Kaiser”
    Stofer Geib Mouthpiece

    My Son plays
    Mack Brass Compensating Euphonium
    Wessex Dolce Compensating Euphonium
    Doug Elliott EUPH SN103, I, I9

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