Effects of water quality on instrument

[ghmerrill]

I can't really address your particular situation, and there are a lot of variables. But I can offer the following simply as an empirical observation and "data point".

When we moved to rural NC in 1987 the house had a well and also a (Sears) water softener. I didn't care for the quality of the softener, and we didn't want to drink either the unfiltered well water or the softened water. So we ended up with pretty much exactly the system you describe. I invested in a high-end Kinetico softener and a Kinetico RO unit. Life was good (modulo having to feed the softener salt on a periodic basis). This set-up was expensive ($2,500+ ? in 1987 as I recall, plus expensive RO filters that needed changing every 6 months or so), but it adequately supported the family of 5 for 15 years. It functioned flawlessly.

Eventually (!!) the kids moved out, and then just a few years ago we got "county water". Great!!!! Well, not so great, and we still use the RO unit, but the softener is gone (sold to some very happy guy for $200 at that point). Okay, so ...

Over a period of approximately 25 years I cleaned and flushed my instruments with the softened water. These include a Cerveny 781 RED BRASS tuba (about 90% copper alloy), a Holton bass trombone with red brass bell and yellow brass slide and valve section, and an Amati oval euphonium. I fully cleaned/flushed the tuba at least twice a year. Never saw anything like what you're describing.

That may not mean much, but it's at least an additional data point. Relevant variables are differences in alloy composition, finish of the instruments, body chemistry, and the chemistry both of your water source and the softened water. As you'll see on the web, there is no shortage of speculation about this (often not based on any experience of the speculator or much knowledge of chemistry or any knowledge of a particular situation in terms of metalurgy, etc.).

Also, certain kinds of brass oxidation that are not harmful are frequently misidentified as "red rot" (which chemists characterize as a leaching of zinc out of the brass alloy -- rather than the relatively harmless formation of an oxide that appears red). And sometimes the sort of spots you describe are the result of imperfections in the finishing of the instrument, allowing oxidation to occur and show up some time later. However, I'm not a chemist and don't play one on TV.

This all means that getting to the root of the problem may be quite difficult -- and may require the manufacturer (or a trusted agent) examining the instrument, or at least looking at some very good photos of it.

The best answer you can possibly get on the web to your question as to whether your water is causing this problem is "Yeah, could be; but maybe not." I think that's the answer you now have.

[ghmerrill]

Keep in mind that "soft water" as used in common parlance is ambiguous between "water containing no minerals" or "water free of dissolved salts which form insoluble deposits" on the one hand, and what is more properly referred to as "softened water" (the result of "softening" the water by replacing the "hard" calcium/iron/magnesium ions with sodium ions. The first is more of a scientific/chemical/physical description and the second is more of a marketing description. But the ambiguity can lead to some confusion because the chemistry of each is different.

Here's a brief paper (really a marketing instrument) describing the difference: http://www.ukwta.org/assets/NewFolde...ive-Rev2-1.pdf (which it refers to as the difference between "softened" water "naturally soft" water). To be sure, the EWTA has a vested interest in allaying fears about the corrosiveness and chemical activity of softened water, and you'd have to read the studies carefully to make a reasoned determination of the claims. But they do suggest at least that softened water shouldn't (?!) have any more effects than (unsoftened) hard water, and the evidence appears to support the claim that softened water is less corrosive than the hard water it replaces.

[davewerden]

OK, it looks like RO water is a good thing to avoid! Here is an article that is short and pretty clear:

https://www.corrosionpedia.com/defin...n-ro-corrosion

As to our related discussion of softened water, here is an article from the same resource about that:

https://www.corrosionpedia.com/defin...ater-softening

[opus37]

OK, it looks like RO water is a good thing to avoid! Here is an article that is short and pretty clear:

https://www.corrosionpedia.com/defin...n-ro-corrosion

As to our related discussion of softened water, here is an article from the same resource about that:

https://www.corrosionpedia.com/defin...ater-softening

After reading this carefully, I think we have a definition issue. When they define RO water they mean Deionized water. That is very close to pure H2O. If you closely read the soft water article, they say it can be produced via ion exchange or an RO filter system. This is what you have in a home RO system. It is not the same as an industrial Deionized water system. They are right, you do not want to used industrial deionized water to clean your horn.

[davewerden]

After reading this carefully, I think we have a definition issue. When they define RO water they mean Deionized water. That is very close to pure H2O. If you closely read the soft water article, they say it can be produced via ion exchange or an RO filter system. This is what you have in a home RO system. It is not the same as an industrial Deionized water system. They are right, you do not want to used industrial deionized water to clean your horn.

Thanks for that clarification. Certainly this is outside my comfort zone of understanding. However, I DO infer from both articles a general concept that our home's water chemistry may be a factor in how well the horn does over time.

From there I start wondering how my own plan is for tube safety, when I'm launching one or more Spitballs through the horn weekly. There is a little alcohol in the fluid, if I recall. For that reason I use the Spitball at the start of practice. Then when done I do my usual blow-through with a bit of valve oil to coat the tubes.

And I still think personal chemistry may have some effect. By "personal" I don't mean just what we were born with. Did I drink a Coke shortly before practice, or eat something, for example? What if I have a nice drink of orange juice and then practice shortly after without brushing my teeth? Would I be blowing too much acid into the horn? For the record, I try to avoid doing so, but I'm still pretty sure that what I eat affects my saliva to some extent, even long after eating.

Maybe I can get Miel to build me a sterling silver horn! One would assume no red rot is possible there!

[ghmerrill]

I remain skeptical that you'll see much, if any, corrosion effect from virtually any household water (softened, unsoftened, RO, ...) in cleaning a brass instrument. You just don't clean it that often (even if you clean it every couple of months), and each cleaning doesn't leave the water in contact with the brass for long (maybe a half hour?). The image in all these doomsday scenarios requires conjuring up an image where the water is actively affecting the brass while in contact with it and basically eating it away via chemical activity. Given the actual circumstances, that seems pretty fanciful and far-fetched. Maybe if you fill the instrument with the water and let it sit for a few days at a time, then MAYBE you'd see such corrosion over quite a long period of time and cleanings. Or maybe if your water has the salt level of sea water (which will corrode things pretty quickly -- in a matter of hours if left unflushed) -- although remember that brass is the traditional material for fittings on boats and ships. But my experience of seeing what happens to copper pipes (with softened water, and unsoftened water) over DECADES makes it difficult for me to buy into the hypothesis that cleaning an instrument a number of times has resulted in "red rot" or anything similar. The interior of the instrument remains in constant contact MUCH longer, over much longer periods, with the combination of condensation from the player's breath and saliva.

Aside from minor (verdigris) oxidation -- which is very common with brass in virtually any circumstances -- the only time I've seen anything approaching the sort of chemical effects being discussed was when I filled up a horn with full-strength vinegar and left it over night in order to remove any calcium deposits. This DID have some results in terms of leaching. But they weren't visible to the naked eye and were evident only in how smoothly the tuning slides functioned. This was not the smartest thing I've ever done. And vinegar has a pH of less than 2.5!

In addition, it seems to me that the original description of the appearance and history of the "red dots" is more consistent with a flaw in finishing (buffing, degreasing, lacquer application) than with chemical reaction from the inside. But maybe that's just me.

So my view remains (and I could be wrong) that if you're seeing peculiar spots in the finish of your horn or in the interior, the first thing to do is to take that issue to the manufacturer. Of course, there's always the chance that there's something you're adding to the water as part of the cleaning process that might be responsible, but I can only report that I've used some pretty strong solvents and degreasers (I don't do it regularly) and not seen any obvious effects from that -- except a cleaner horn. I'm really interested in what Adams has to say about the problem. Everyone runs into manufacturing problems and failures at one time or another.