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Thread: Effects of water quality on instrument

  1. #1

    Effects of water quality on instrument

    I've been shadowing this forum for quite some time, but have never had to make an account due to the thorough coverage of everything I have needed. My current question though, does not seem to have been addressed.

    We installed a water softening system a few years back, and fearing the effects of water with elevated sodium, I kissed the days of bathing my horn goodbye. This wasn't the end of cleaning, mind you. With the water softener we installed a reverse osmosis system. So, I replaced euphonium baths with regularly pushing a cup of RO water through my horn, and taking more frequent trips to my tech for an ultrasonic cleaning.

    I have been asking around for ages whether softened water should have an effect on my horn, and all I ever got were answers like "I'm not sure, but I really doubt it." So when I got my brand new Adams E1, I decided to take no chances, and stuck to this regimen without problems.

    But after a few years, I was dumb and decided that since I was overdue for a cleaning, and wouldn't have access to my tech for a month, I would just go for it. I had regrets after I finished, and decided to thoroughly flush out the inside with RO water.

    Not a month later, I noticed a few tiny pink dots on some of the tubing. I raised my eyebrows, but a small amount of research didn't lead me to any knowledge of what it was or why it occurred. A few days later the spots were clearly larger than before. Now getting scared I did some more thorough research, and learned about what is called red rot. There seems to be very limited photographic resources on red rot though, and almost all of it is extreme red rot, which didn't seem to resemble the mysterious pink dots much if at all. The only things I knew were that they are under the lacquer, and that the few that were near points where I could view the inside of the tubing beneath them, had no red spot that I could see on the inside.

    More days have passed and they are getting larger. I keep flushing the reverse osmosis water through, hoping to stop whatever is happening, but it will not relent. As the spots get bigger, and more appear I am getting extremely concerned. It will be about half a week now until I can get to a reputable tech, but I understandably do not want to wait. My concerns are only rising as I observe that this is only taking place in the tubing made of the yellowest (or highest percentage of zinc) brass. Its primarily clustered in the hardest to reach parts of these tubes as well. Its not like I can soak the horn, because RO systems only do a small amount of water at a time, and I can't pressure wash the inside, because all of our pressurized water is softened.

    I don't know what's going on, or at least just don't want to accept it. I don't really understand why either. If it is red rot, and it is in fact from the inside out, it's not at a stage where it poses immediate structural concern, but if it continues at its current growth rate, I don't think it'd be more than a couple weeks until I have a serious problem.

    I'm open for whatever suggestions or thoughts anyone has. Go go go.

    http://www.trumpetmaster.com/threads...uescher.74983/

    The image on this page seems to most closely resemble my pink dots. Mostly like the smaller bits. And most of it is located in the second valve compensating bit of tubing, which is extremely hard to get to, and the bits of the fourth valve tubing just before and after it goes through the main valve block as per the compensating system.

  2. #2
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    Just realized you can post images.

  4. #4
    Welcome to the forum! You probably noticed a delay in your post appearing. This was due to the forum's built-in monitoring system, which could not be sure if your post was spam. It is more likely to happen on a person's first post, and it triggered on yours. But now the post is approved and public.

    What you show is almost certainly the annoyance called "red rot" or "pink spots." It is usually caused by one or more tiny impurities in the brass itself, and may be aggravated by one person's body chemistry more than by another's. Further rinsing will not make the spot go away, although keeping the horn clean will probably slow its progression. There is probably nothing overt you did to cause it, although there are steps you can take to help prevent it in the future.

    However, before going into that stuff more, I encourage you to contact Adams through your dealer about the issue. I don't know how long you had the horn how much time would pass before Adams would no longer consider this to be an quality defect, but they may be able to help you. The company is pretty responsive to customer needs.

    I'll abbreviate the red rot issue as RR for convenience...

    As far as I know there is no way to reverse or "cure" an individual spot. Replacing the tube is the usual solution. For straight tubing that is easy to get to, a good repair shop might be able to do this will stock parts. But for tapered tubes it is more difficult. For tubes like your first photo (the 2nd valve compensating loop) replacement is a little harder because there is no visible joint and connector wrapped around it. The factory may be the best recourse to fix such a thing, but I am just guessing about that.

    I've heard that yellow brass is more likely to collect RR as you suggest above. Also, the tubes closer to your mouth are most likely to show RR. That is why so many of the Chinese clone euphoniums have gold/red brass leadpipes, I'm sure. (Incidentally, Adams prefers to use yellow brass on the small tubes because it works better for the valve system.)

    The problem of RR is a combination of the raw material that makes up the tubing and your own body chemistry. Water quality used for rinsing may also be a factor, but I have not seen that discussed anywhere. Adams has gone to unusual lengths to control every part of manufacturing (including buying some companies that would otherwise have been a third-party supplier). However, no instrument company that I know of actually manufacturers the tubing. Similarly, even the most elite automobile companies such a Rolls-Royce don't have a foundry as part of their operation - they buy their steel just like the other companies do. Anyway, it is possible that your horn in the hands of a different owner might not have developed RR, but it's also possible that it would have.

    I've seen examples of RR from many different instrument companies. My own Yamaha trombone has a spot near the end of the bell. In that case, the spot obviously developed without "encouragement" from my own saliva, because the only place my own moisture could touch is covered by lacquer. The RR starts beneath the lacquer in every case I've seen. And in this case the RR has not gotten worse in more than 20 years, which I suppose is because it is not assaulted by my own chemistry.

    My own regimen to ward off RR is multi-faceted. First, I try to keep the inside clean. Rinsing is not always convenient because there is no good place (that I'm willing to use) to rinse the horn. I'm limited to full rinses during the warm months, except in extreme circumstances. So I now use the Spitball system to keep the passages clean. My chemistry has demonstrated that running a Spitball through the horn weekly is not excessively often! If you have a convenient place to use it, the Quick Horn Rinse system would be great to use, but I would still want to use it weekly.

    The most important thing in my theory is to protect the bare inner tubing from my saliva. I SHOULD, but usually do not, brush my teeth before practicing. However, I recommend doing so. I think standard valve oil is better than synthetic at protecting from RR, so I stick with it. After each practice session (and I have been religious about this with my new E3), I put several drops of oil in the leadpipe and then blow hard with all the valves pushed down. I'm trying to create a vapor with the oil and my air, which will touch all the passageways. Then I drain all the slides and put the horn away. I want the oil to coat the tubes, rather than my leftover saliva, as much as possible. This could help keep the RR from getting too much worse for your own horn until you can get it fixed. And once it is fixed you could try my technique or something similar as a precaution.
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    Alliance Mouthpiece (DC3)
    YouTube: dwerden
    Facebook: davewerden
    Twitter: davewerden
    Instagram: davewerdeneuphonium

  5. #5
    Join Date
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    Keep in mind that RO water has an acidic PH by nature.

    Distilled would be guaranteed neutral @ 7.0

    DDG

  6. #6
    Thank you for the thorough insights. The horn is only two and a half years old, so it's either something initially wrong with the metal, or more likely, since I can't find any other Adams owner already getting red rot, a result of me doing something terribly wrong for two and a half years straight. I'd just like to figure out what, so I can stop it. It's possible that it was my use of RO water for all this time, thinking that I was evading problems.
    For now I have taken to letting it sit out of the case for extended periods of time to more thoroughly dry out inside. Also, I will start using your technique with valve oil, though what I own (monster, ultra pure) is synthetic.
    I don't actually have a quick horn rinse, but am about to purchase one. Thanks, and I'll keep you updated on my predicament.

  7. #7
    Wow, that sure does look like red rot. I think it's almost unheard of in an instrument so new, even in ones that don't get cleaned at all. And to see it in multiple places like that and not just in the leadpipe where crud might have collected is alarming. I didn't know that RO water was acidic, but it looks like it's only very slightly acidic. Maybe if you flushed with RO water and then left it wet there for a long time? The water sat in the tubes for days or weeks? Perhaps too frequent chemical cleaning? Or it was in acid for too long while at your tech was cleaning it? How many times have you had it done?

    I saw a paper presented at the HBS conference this year about drying the inside of brass instruments to preserve them. I forget the exact numbers, but the author of the paper measured the decay in brass instruments that were dried after being played when compared to ones that were left to dry out on their own and it was extremely dramatic. They had done testing using this fan:

    http://serpents.ch/sample-page/zubeh...pents/?lang=en

    If I remember correctly, placed in the receiver after each playing session it dried out the inside of the instrument in something like 30 minutes, where an instrument left on its own would take weeks to fully dry out.
    --
    Barry

  8. #8
    I never made an effort to get the inside of my horn bone dry, but I was always thorough in blowing water out, including the 4th valve and the compensating slides. I never really asked my tech exactly what his process is, but I don't think he uses acid. Just an ultrasonic cleaner (large enough to fit the entire horn), soap, and pressurized water. I did these cleanings about once every 6 months. Right now I'm headed to a buddy's house to use their standard tap water for a good ol' hose down the bell cleaning.
    I'll definitely look into this fan. Thanks for the suggestion.

  9. #9
    Hmm. On another inspection I'm seeing little specs of green corrosion inside some of the slides, that I had thought was gunk. Some of them seem to be under the pink dots, while some pink dots don't have green specs, and some green specs don't have pink dots. And rather than being pits, they are little specs sticking off of the metal itself.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by bebitz View Post
    Hmm. On another inspection I'm seeing little specs of green corrosion inside some of the slides, that I had thought was gunk. Some of them seem to be under the pink dots, while some pink dots don't have green specs, and some green specs don't have pink dots. And rather than being pits, they are little specs sticking off of the metal itself.
    I've never seen anything like coming from metal failure. It has always been deposits of some kind. In some cases I've seen dried slime/crud look something like that, for example. This makes me wonder if there is something amiss with your cleaning regimen, either your individual efforts or those of your repair shop. And I am also beginning to get more suspicious about your water chemistry. I believe certain interactions can create what is called "scaling," which may be what you see. We need some of our engineers to jump in here!
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    Alliance Mouthpiece (DC3)
    YouTube: dwerden
    Facebook: davewerden
    Twitter: davewerden
    Instagram: davewerdeneuphonium

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