Originally posted by ghmerrill
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Originally posted by ghmerrill View PostUnless, of course, this is another "made in China" product (in one or another sense of "made")
I'd expect that the Q-series euphonium would be made the same way -- bell, main branches, leadpipe - all the most impactful pieces that require the most skill to make would be made in Massachusetts and then shipped to the Eastman factory in China where it'd be married with a valve cluster and all the assembly would be done. Then shipped back to the US for inspection and any fixes that need to be done.--
Barry
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Hello all- We are talking about a Q series instrument, so that should dictate ballpark cost and origin, although we all know the quality we will expect. Also, the Euro shank was dropped by Besson I believe as thru the years there was too much confusion between large and euro shank horns, there are more choices with large shank mouthpieces, and people flat out loose the euro shank horn mouthpieces which for some make the horn obsolete, just my experience dealing with band programs.
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I am a bit shocked that a brand new professional euphonium would be specified with a medium shank mouthpiece. There are two significant reasons not to go this direction.
1) The trend over the last 10-20 years has been to a larger euphonium sound and particular towards the brass band market.
2) This very much limits the choice of mouthpieces. Wick makes many of theirs in medium shanks but the Heritage and a few others are not available this way. Of course Schilke, BB and a few others offer them but many other manufacturer's do not. If I were looking for a horn to replace my 2900, I would absolutely want a large shank receiver. Perhaps Shires has good reason but it's a puzzle to me.
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Originally posted by bbocaner View PostI'd expect that the Q-series euphonium would be made the same way -- bell, main branches, leadpipe - all the most impactful pieces that require the most skill to make would be made in Massachusetts and then shipped to the Eastman factory in China where it'd be married with a valve cluster and all the assembly would be done. Then shipped back to the US for inspection and any fixes that need to be done.
I mean, when you think of what this must mean for the relative costs of shipping, US labor, Chinese labor, added administrative costs, perhaps import/export duties, and profit margin, you have to say to yourself "Wow, wages for the average skilled/semi-skilled Chinese worker must really suck," (though "suck" is relative to a number of things). And this is in the context of the company already supporting staff in the US to do some of the fabrication/assembly work! This yields insight WAY beyond what you get from thinking of the business model of Wessex, Mack Brass, and others.
I don't mean that as any kind of political comment, and I won't make any, tempting as that may be. I just never realized the scope of what the difference must be, and I thought I did.Gary Merrill
Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)
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Originally posted by MichaelSchott View PostPerhaps Shires has good reason but it's a puzzle to me.Gary Merrill
Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)
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I was just trying out Eastman tubas at a local music store with an Eastman representative (playing that 6/4 C tuba is a religious experience, so easy). He told me that the Shires' basic premise is to make a horn that's similar to the 2900, but with the intonation fixed for around the top end horn price range. It makes sense that that's what Hiram Diaz would want. He also said that there will be a very close Chinese built approximation for a stellar deal. With their tubas being so easy to play and fantastic sounding, I'm optimistic about what they could do with the Willson premise. Though, I am moderately upset that I just bought a 2900 before I heard of this.
Alex S.
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Will the Shires have a better low range than the Willson? That's the one big thing that would set it apart for me.University of Miami - BM Euphonium Performance '21
Indiana University - MM Bass Trombone and Euphonium Performance '24
Besson Prestige 2052S
Courtois 551BHRA
Conn 88HCLSGX
Various Greg Black mouthpieces
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Originally posted by AlexS View PostI was just trying out Eastman tubas at a local music store with an Eastman representative (playing that 6/4 C tuba is a religious experience, so easy). He told me that the Shires' basic premise is to make a horn that's similar to the 2900, but with the intonation fixed for around the top end horn price range. It makes sense that that's what Hiram Diaz would want. He also said that there will be a very close Chinese built approximation for a stellar deal. With their tubas being so easy to play and fantastic sounding, I'm optimistic about what they could do with the Willson premise. Though, I am moderately upset that I just bought a 2900 before I heard of this.
Alex S.
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Here in washington DC the 2900 is by far the most popular model. And the bore is the same as besson prestige, adams, yamaha, and many others - and actually larger through the 4th valve than some of the others. It just has a smaller receiver (although a regular bass trombone size is optional) and I believe the bell throat and first few branches are somewhat smaller than some other models.--
Barry
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Originally posted by bbocaner View PostHere in washington DC the 2900 is by far the most popular model. And the bore is the same as besson prestige, adams, yamaha, and many others - and actually larger through the 4th valve than some of the others. It just has a smaller receiver (although a regular bass trombone size is optional) and I believe the bell throat and first few branches are somewhat smaller than some other models.
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Originally posted by MichaelSchott View PostI don't know if DC is an outlier due to the service bands and the euphonium students they teach. I've been in the brass band world for the last 23 years and the 2900 is a rare bird there. It's not talked about here very often either. This forum is a good cross section of US and international euphonium demand and usage.James Kircoff
Genesee Wind Symphony - principal euphonium (Adams E3 Custom .60mm yellow brass bell w/ K&G 3.5)
Capital City Brass Band (2019 NABBA 2nd section champions) - 1st baritone (Besson BE956 w/ Denis Wick 6BY)
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Originally posted by jkircoff View PostThis year's NABBA was dominated by Bessons, Yamahas, and Sterlings. There were a few Willsons and Adams (even saw a Wessex), but they were outliers.
Adams has only been getting attention for 7 or 8 years and you're not going to find a used one very often, and certainly are not going to bring your own that you bought 20 years ago. Not being in a brass band I don't know if they are a good fit, but with all the models and options I have to think there would be a few combos that would work very well.
Oh, and I'm glad to see Sterling is around in that world. They are a descendant of Besson and still (mostly) made in GB.Dave Werden (ASCAP)
Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
Adams Artist (Adams E3)
Alliance Mouthpiece DC3, Wick 4AL, Wick 4ABL
YouTube: dwerden
Facebook: davewerden
Twitter: davewerden
Instagram: davewerdeneuphonium
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Another premium instrument? Crikey, that’s bold. I know that it won’t sell in the UK, just like Adams haven’t, Willson haven’t, Meinl haven’t, Hirsbrunner haven’t, or Yamaha haven’t, certainly not in the numbers they’d hope. (Certainly not helped by greedy, yet highly conservative, cautious dealers).
I appreciate the UK is only a tiny country but it’s a pretty large demographic for euphoniums. The medium shank would be laughed out of town.
“I’ve bought a new Shires euphonium and I’d like to try a different mouthpiece”.
“Certainly, would you like a 4 or a 6AM.”1983 Boosey & Hawkes Sovereign
Denis Wick SM4 (original series)
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I had a recent conversation with the solo euphonium player of a top UK band, one of the most famous ones that's been around since the 19th century, who volunteered to me (without knowing that I played an Adams) that he had tried Adams and was very impressed, and that he would absolutely consider playing one if they'd give him one like Besson did. (!!)--
Barry
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