Choosing which Euph to buy.

[tynerm]

Hello all!

I've been reading through these forums for a couple of weeks when I stumbled upon them as I was looking for a decent inexpensive euphonium to purchase. I was in the Marine Corps Band in Quantico, VA for a while, and after I got out of the military, I kinda fell off the bandwagon...(heh). I've recently started to get back into it, and purchased a super cheap baritone horn from Amazon, I believe it's a Hawk brand. For the price it wasn't terrible, but I've started to truly outgrow the horn. I've been looking around and have found a few that have caught my eye, with the help of this forum mainly. I've narrowed my choices down to three, but I'm not sure which to go for, as far as "bang for buck" and longevity as I continue to grow again. The ones I'm looking at, specifically are:

Wessex Dolce compensated euphonium EP100. $1440/1295 + Shipping
https://www.wessex-tubas.com/shop/eu...lce-euphonium/
Either in Silver/Gold or Gold Brass Bell. (undecided)

Mack Brass EU1150S 995
http://www.mackbrass.com/MACK-EU1150_Comp.php

Schiller Elite V Euphonium Silver and Gold $1585 + Shipping.
https://reverb.com/item/4754870-schi...EALw_wcB&pla=1

If anyone knows of any other inexpensive euphs that could last well into a refurbished professional career (thinking about going back into military band once I get my chops back), the advice would be greatly appreciated. I'd like to stay around the $1500 range, but would be willing to go a bit higher, say $2500, if there's anything in the market that's better than these at that price. My only requirements are that it be compensating 3+1. I'm not too worried about finish, as long as it's durable and doesn't affect the timbre of the horn in a negative way. I prefer the look of real silver over nickle, but I've played lacquered horns and like them as well. I've mostly played Yamaha 642s at the professional level, as well as the Willson 2950, which I've enjoyed the sound of both.

Thanks much for any and all input. I know there are several threads already posted for each of these instruments. I just wanted to know compared to each other, and the rest of the market, which would best fit my needs on the budget I have in mind.

[jkircoff]

I have personal experience with a Wessex Dolce I purchased in 2015 because I wanted a euphonium with a trigger, which my Besson 967 and Yamaha 642 don't have. I thought the Dolce was OK for the price, but I am spoiled by high-end euphoniums, so take that for what it's worth. I don't know if the Dolce or any of the Chinese clones would cut it in a professional military band, so if you're looking at that avenue you might want to look into a used high-end euphonium. Just my 2 cents.

[davewerden]

I don't know about the post bands, but I don't think anyone in the top military bands is using a horn in the price range you mention. You should not count on your original plan, but a used pro horn might work out. That will cost you more than $2500 for a good one, though.

However, in that price range I would go with the Wessex with the gold brass bell. If you are near Michigan you could go the Wessex and test one there. You would answer a lot of your own questions, assuming your chops are in solid, stable condition. If not, then with any horn your results might vary from day to day.

A Willson is a safe bet for military band, but when a used Willson gets even close to your price range they are usually in very rough shape. The same price problem is true with all the brands. Yamahas comp horns get down in the $3000's range sometimes, and are in decent shape if you are patient for the right one to come along. I think you could walk into an audition with a Yamaha, so that would be as close as you could come.

I invite you to check all the compensating euphoniums that have sold in the For Sale section of this site. Look for the green check mark, which indicates a sale. You might get a better sense of what the used market is like.

[tynerm]

Thanks for the advice, Dave. I don't necessarily need the horn once I get into the military, as the bands have one they let you use once you get in, typically the Yamaha for the concert band style performances, and a Willsons for the marching gigs, at least that's how it was in my band. Sorry if I wasn't clear about that in my first post. I just need something that I can practice on until I get to that point that will serve as a decent practice horn that won't necessarily create any bad habits that I'll need to break when I get a better horn.

Unfortunately, I don't live anywhere near Michigan, about 13 hours away probably, so that isn't an option.

I've thought about the used route, but I'm not really sure what to expect, as there's a huge range in "used" from barely used/like new, to needing lots of repairs, and I'm new to the area I live in now, and have no idea where the nearest decent brass repair shop would be.

[tynerm]

I have personal experience with a Wessex Dolce I purchased in 2015 because I wanted a euphonium with a trigger, which my Besson 967 and Yamaha 642 don't have. I thought the Dolce was OK for the price, but I am spoiled by high-end euphoniums, so take that for what it's worth. I don't know if the Dolce or any of the Chinese clones would cut it in a professional military band, so if you're looking at that avenue you might want to look into a used high-end euphonium. Just my 2 cents.

These would definitely not cut it as far as performances go, but I'd be looking at it more as a practice horn to get my chops back, and something to keep at home once I get back in. Thanks for the input!

[58mark]

Do yourself a favor and check out the John packer 274s

[euphdude]

If all you are looking for is a practice horn, how about this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Schiller-Eli...wAAOSw~CFY5Uz6

I had one of the earliest versions of this in 2009-2010. It played decently for the price but mechanically felt very crude...clunky valves, hazy finish, cheap valve caps,etc. I owned a Wessex Dolce in 2015-2016 and it had fixed all of these issues, and then some, with all of the Wessex upgrades. I suggest this because I played a new model of the base Schiller while visiting my hometown, and a student had one and let me try it. It was really great. It didn't have the nice Wessex upgrades, but at this price who cares? I just got one for myself now that I'm getting back into playing. My Olds ambassador is plenty good enough for amateur community band section work, but for work on the Bach cello suites, etc. I needed a compensating horn. I'll post a few photos in a few days. Fixed all of my old complaints. Better valves out of the box than the Wessex. I think the nice Wessex upgrades are worth it if the horn will be your primary axe. But it is amazing how much progress all of these horns have made since 2009-2010. BTW there is a make offer option....use it!

[tynerm]

If all you are looking for is a practice horn, how about this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Schiller-Eli...wAAOSw~CFY5Uz6

I had one of the earliest versions of this in 2009-2010. It played decently for the price but mechanically felt very crude...clunky valves, hazy finish, cheap valve caps,etc. I owned a Wessex Dolce in 2015-2016 and it had fixed all of these issues, and then some, with all of the Wessex upgrades. I suggest this because I played a new model of the base Schiller while visiting my hometown, and a student had one and let me try it. It was really great. It didn't have the nice Wessex upgrades, but at this price who cares? I just got one for myself now that I'm getting back into playing. My Olds ambassador is plenty good enough for amateur community band section work, but for work on the Bach cello suites, etc. I needed a compensating horn. I'll post a few photos in a few days. Fixed all of my old complaints. Better valves out of the box than the Wessex. I think the nice Wessex upgrades are worth it if the horn will be your primary axe. But it is amazing how much progress all of these horns have made since 2009-2010. BTW there is a make offer option....use it!

Thanks, Euphdude!

I had looked into this horn, too, but I wasn't sure how it compared to "Elite V" models, as in, would the nearly double price be a significant upgrade, or would they be similar in all but the finish and all the gadgets and such? I'm pretty sure I don't need a trigger on the main slide, but then again, I've never had one to know if I would make use of it, or if it is just a gimmick? Is the intonation such a problem that it would require frequent and rapid adjustments that couldn't be made by lipping the notes? I don't know if anyone has had experience with the two next to each other that could help me out with this, though. Also, I'm not sure what a fair "offer" would be, without being able to actually put my hands on the horn and test it out.

[tynerm]

Do yourself a favor and check out the John packer 274s

Oh my. I like that. I've never heard of this brand before. I think if I were to go with this, I'd spend the extra 1200 and get the 374, though. Haha.

[lpope]

Go for the Packer, 374 if you can find one in your budget. I had one before I got my Adams, they are not bad horns.

[58mark]

I played both the 374 and the 274 back to back, and preferred the 274. Maybe the bell is slightly different, but the 274 bell is 11.75, which is really close to the 12" bell of the 374

The 274 feels and sounds like a classic besson. The other horns you listed are all based on the yamaha, which is a different sound concept entirely. I prefer the besson

Contact Joe Sellmansberger for pricing, he gives great discounts through mid South music

[euphdude]

Thanks, Euphdude!

I had looked into this horn, too, but I wasn't sure how it compared to "Elite V" models, as in, would the nearly double price be a significant upgrade, or would they be similar in all but the finish and all the gadgets and such? I'm pretty sure I don't need a trigger on the main slide, but then again, I've never had one to know if I would make use of it, or if it is just a gimmick? Is the intonation such a problem that it would require frequent and rapid adjustments that couldn't be made by lipping the notes? I don't know if anyone has had experience with the two next to each other that could help me out with this, though. Also, I'm not sure what a fair "offer" would be, without being able to actually put my hands on the horn and test it out.

Difficult to say. I've seen the higher end Schillers before but I've not played them. Would they be better than the Wessex? I doubt it. Until this year, without realizing that all of the makers have raised the bar, I would have said the Wessex etc for everyone regardless of their need because the old Schillers were not nearly as good. Now I don't think it is as clear cut. I think the Wessex upgrades and quality control would justify its higher cost for someone who was looking at this for their primary instrument. For someone where this will be a practice horn or secondary instrument, the base Schillers savings become an issue.

Triggers are a much debated topic including on this forum. For your situation I would look toward what you would expect in the future. Would you play a triggered horn in the future? For an amateur there is no way I could justify it for myself. The base Schiller intonation is in line with the old Yamaha 642s.

In terms of offers, expect to get a 10-15% discount at most

[highpitch]

I gave a Dolce a toot at the last local Tuba Christmas, and found it easily better than the Schiller a bandmate had.

They neither one equaled my restored New Standard, but they are a lot less loot.

I voted for the brass Wessex.

DG

[tynerm]

Thanks for all the input so far. It's really helped. I think if I can get the Schiller Euphdude suggested for under $800, I'll go with that, otherwise, I'll end up getting the Dolce in Gold Brass Bell. It seems like that's the more popular opinion thus far, and I think I'll be happy with either of those for now. I've seen some used Bessons on ebay for around $1250. Anyone know how those stack up to the ones we've been discussing so far?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Besson-4-Val...oAAOSwKJRZhfxU

I've never messed around with Besson much, and I'm not really sure how they stack up in terms of quality and sound.

[davewerden]

Old Bessons open up a whole new line of discussion. They can be great horns for many folks; they are variable from one to the next; they may have metal valve guides, which are noisy, although that can be addressed by a repair shop; they are built like tanks and will stand up well; they have a very nice tone, but it is not the same as the modern horns.

The one you linked to looks quite good. It will probably have the medium-size mouthpiece receiver, which limits your choices somewhat. BUT notice that the bidding STARTS at $1,249. It will probably go much higher, although it may still be in your price range. There are some players who drool over owning a horn like this, because they are famous historically and that is for valid reasons.