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Thread: generally, what range is expected from the euphonium in community band type music?

  1. #11
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    Apologies for the revival of this old thread. I've always been confused by the range I'm supposed to have on the Euphonium. From the posts here, it seems like the Bb 4 ledger lines above the bass clef staff is the usual range and adequate for most community repertoire. I've found the chart above that says anything above that is considered extended. It is safe to say that we are generally unlikely to see such ranges in community band repertoires, right?

    I've always heard high school students saying they can hit C5 or E5 , which sounds like the extended range notes. Never seen repertoire that high and after 15 years of playing, I can only hit Bb 4 ledger lines above and that's even pushing it
    "Never over complicate things. Accept "bad" days. Always enjoy yourself when playing, love the sound we can make on our instruments (because that's why we all started playing the Euph)"

    Euph: Yamaha 642II Neo - 千歌音
    Mouthpiece: K&G 4D, Denis Wick 5AL

    https://soundcloud.com/ashsparkle_chika
    https://www.youtube.com/user/AshTSparkle/

  2. #12
    Join Date
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    For community band normal repertoire you’re mostly correct. I sometimes see the high B natural (4 ledger lines above) bass clef staff. That note is notoriously difficult for many model euphs but I’m lucky to play the M5050 where it’s easily played fingered 2 OR 1-2. Holst 1st Suite you have notes lower than the normal range in the chart where you need at least a 4-valve horn.
    Rick Floyd
    Miraphone 5050 - Warburton BJ / RF mpc
    YEP-641S (recently sold)
    Doug Elliott - 102 rim; I-cup; I-9 shank


    "Always play with a good tone, never louder than lovely, never softer than supported." - author unknown.
    Symphonic Band of the Palm Beaches
    El Cumbanchero (Raphael Hernandez, arr. Naohiro Iwai)
    Chorale and Shaker Dance
    (John Zdechlik)

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
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    Summerfield, Florida Sturgis, SD (summers)
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    My thinking on range for community band players is that a high Bb is pretty adequate and a low F is pretty adequate, which allows those that don't have 4 valve instruments the opportunity to play about 99+% of notes you might see. However, if you have a four valve instrument, I would learn how to play from F (or E natural) down to pedal Bb. You don't encounter very many notes in that range, but it is just fun and useful at times to be able to do that. As for the high range, my philosophy on that has always been like this:

    What is the note that you feel you must be able to play? Is it a high Bb? Or perhaps a high C? Whatever the note is, then that WOULD NOT be the note that I have in my repertoire as the absolute highest note I can play. Let me explain. The high Bb in Stars and Stripes comes to mind. If that is the very highest note you can play, then often you would miss it, or if you hit it, it might sound strained. So, therefore, I would always try to have a couple or three notes (chromatically) above my target highest note that I could play at least a little bit decent. If you are able to play a trifle above your target highest pitch, then you are more likely to have a good high target highest note.
    John Morgan
    The U.S. Army Band (Pershing's Own) 1971-1976
    Adams E3 Custom Series Euphonium, 1956 B&H Imperial Euphonium,
    1973 F. E. Olds & Son Studio Model T-31 Baritone
    Adams TB1 Tenor Trombone, Yamaha YBL-822G Bass Trombone
    Year Round Except Summer:
    Kingdom of the Sun (KOS) Concert Band, Ocala, FL (Euphonium)
    KOS Brass Quintet (Trombone, Euphonium)
    Summer Only:
    Rapid City Municipal Band, Rapid City, SD (Euphonium)
    Rapid City New Horizons Band (Euphonium)

  4. #14
    Thank you, Mr. Floyd & Mr. Morgan!

    And that philosophy makes a lot of sense and definitely is helpful! Learning to play a few chromatic notes higher than the required note so that you can play that note well. I am seeing a lot of Bb (4 ledger lines above) in our repertoire lately, and I've definitely been having a hard time consistently hit them. Will try to apply that philosophy!

    It feels as if I strain my lips and my face even when playing the A and Bb, so it's even worse for anything above. I am guessing it's still down to strengthening my lips and outputting faster air to slowly build up those B natural and C above the Bb4 ?
    "Never over complicate things. Accept "bad" days. Always enjoy yourself when playing, love the sound we can make on our instruments (because that's why we all started playing the Euph)"

    Euph: Yamaha 642II Neo - 千歌音
    Mouthpiece: K&G 4D, Denis Wick 5AL

    https://soundcloud.com/ashsparkle_chika
    https://www.youtube.com/user/AshTSparkle/

  5. #15
    Join Date
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    Location
    Summerfield, Florida Sturgis, SD (summers)
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChristianeSparkle View Post
    ...It feels as if I strain my lips and my face even when playing the A and Bb, so it's even worse for anything above. I am guessing it's still down to strengthening my lips and outputting faster air to slowly build up those B natural and C above the Bb4 ?
    One of the best ways to improve range (and become/stay proficient on scales) is to play scales starting low, then go up a half step each time, until you are playing up to and above high Bb. Start the scale soft and end it loud. Try to hold the last note for a while. Play a pedal tone or two in between scales. Repeat.

    As a usual part of my warmups (when I have 30 minutes or so) I start on low Bb (in the staff) and play a one octave Bb concert scale. Then a one octave B natural scale. Then a one octave C scale. Ending up with a one octave scale starting on tuning note Bb up to high Bb. I do this daily. It gets all the major scales and two octaves worth of range. I sometimes will then start on tuning note Bb and play one octave down. Do this until I play down to the pedal Bb. That gets all the scales again, only lower, now I have three full octaves. Then I might start on tuning Bb and go up an octave until I play maybe Eb up to high Eb above high Bb. Or maybe only C to C, or Db to Db, but at least some scales that go above high Bb. These really help me with both range, and facility will all major scales so that they are second nature to me. And I always throw in some arpeggios sort of just like the scale work, but up and down with the arpeggios. A long time ago, when I practiced scales, I got in the habit of not only playing scales to become familiar with them, but I tried to make playing scales sound musical. So I most always vary tempo, articulations, dynamics, vibrato, etc. so that a scale can sound beautiful. My philosophy here is never waste a scale by just playing the notes, make music with it, improvise, vary things, always keep it interesting. This makes learning how to play high just sort of happen as a result of doing other things.
    John Morgan
    The U.S. Army Band (Pershing's Own) 1971-1976
    Adams E3 Custom Series Euphonium, 1956 B&H Imperial Euphonium,
    1973 F. E. Olds & Son Studio Model T-31 Baritone
    Adams TB1 Tenor Trombone, Yamaha YBL-822G Bass Trombone
    Year Round Except Summer:
    Kingdom of the Sun (KOS) Concert Band, Ocala, FL (Euphonium)
    KOS Brass Quintet (Trombone, Euphonium)
    Summer Only:
    Rapid City Municipal Band, Rapid City, SD (Euphonium)
    Rapid City New Horizons Band (Euphonium)

  6. #16
    From one tuba player to another make sure you don't fall into a bad habit of using a mouthpiece that is too small. I started out with trombone and euphonium using smaller mouthpieces and upon some advice from Doug Elliott in the trombone forum (in general discussion about mouthpieces) started using a larger piece with great results. I actually have more range on the larger mouthpiece and am getting a much better sound. I've played tuba for almost 40 years. I've played trombone and euphonium for about 3. Had to remind myself to relax, play lots of long tones and enjoy! Best wishes to you in your new endeavor.
    John 3:16


    Conn Victor 5H Trombone
    Yamaha 354 Trombone
    Conn 15I Euphonium

  7. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Davidus1 View Post
    From one tuba player to another make sure you don't fall into a bad habit of using a mouthpiece that is too small. I started out with trombone and euphonium using smaller mouthpieces and upon some advice from Doug Elliott in the trombone forum (in general discussion about mouthpieces) started using a larger piece with great results. I actually have more range on the larger mouthpiece and am getting a much better sound. I've played tuba for almost 40 years. I've played trombone and euphonium for about 3. Had to remind myself to relax, play lots of long tones and enjoy! Best wishes to you in your new endeavor.
    This is very interesting. I've been wondering whether a 4AL would be more comfortable to me compared to the 5AL that I'm using right now. Been having air leaking out of my corners while playing. I have rather crooked teeth.
    "Never over complicate things. Accept "bad" days. Always enjoy yourself when playing, love the sound we can make on our instruments (because that's why we all started playing the Euph)"

    Euph: Yamaha 642II Neo - 千歌音
    Mouthpiece: K&G 4D, Denis Wick 5AL

    https://soundcloud.com/ashsparkle_chika
    https://www.youtube.com/user/AshTSparkle/

  8. #18
    I think John and Rick both make great points regarding typical "community band" range. In my experience, low concert F (right below bass clef staff) and high concert B-flat (fourth ledger line) will cover 99% of the notes that you would play in community groups. I kind of think that that range probably covers 99% of the notes played by professionals in ensemble settings as well. Any actual pros please feel free to correct me on that!

    Solo literature pushes that range considerably in both directions.

    What John said regarding practicing range is spot on. I feel like when I was in college and working on a piece, the advice I was given was that whatever the highest/lowest note that a piece called for, I should be practicing at least a minor third above/below that (which would be 3 chromatic notes, as John said). So if you have rep with the high concert B-flat, in practice you should be trying to play C's and D-flats above that to really make the B-flat solid every time.

    It should be said that to many amateur players, myself included, a D-flat above high B-flat feels very high! So, don't get discouraged when you are working towards these goals and be patient! John's advice on extending your high range is great, and I think it is good to not ignore working on low range at the same time. This will give your chops a rest from playing high notes, and if practiced correctly with lots of air and a good embouchure, can help with the high range as well. Scales are an obvious way to work on extending your range downward, but it is also fun to take simple (or not so simple) melodies that you enjoy playing and play them down an octave or two.

  9. #19
    I would like to seek further opinions/advices on extending my range. I've been doing the exercise that was shared and did make some progress, though the Bb seem to still be rather wonky. I've found this explanation below by Roger Lewis, which is rather interesting.

    http://www.chisham.com/tips/bbs/jan2...obE5dsFGQTLz24

    http://forums.chisham.com/viewtopic....CqnyDSKpNmo2Bg

    What caught my eyes was what was said below.

    Now place your hand palm up against your chest. While still looking forward blow air at your hand (pretty much straight down). This is the setting I use to have a full sound in the high register.

    For the high range you need to have firm tissue vibrating against firm tissue. This is when you curl the lips in slightly to have the "weathered" tissue of the outer lips creating the vibrations. This is firmer tissue and will allow the lip to vibrate at an even faster rate when combined with good air speed and a smaller apperture.
    Wondering if that is what I should be paying attention to? My high range air flow is definitely not pointing downwards at all, it's probably at almost the same angle as the others, which is slightly pointed downwards (which means I squeeze my lips more, I am guessing).

    The part of the lips is also an interesting point, as it seems like I am supposed to curl my lips inwards?

    Not sure if I am doing it wrongly, I was just testing it out a little, and it feels like my teeth are biting into my lips when I try to keep my air direction downwards.
    "Never over complicate things. Accept "bad" days. Always enjoy yourself when playing, love the sound we can make on our instruments (because that's why we all started playing the Euph)"

    Euph: Yamaha 642II Neo - 千歌音
    Mouthpiece: K&G 4D, Denis Wick 5AL

    https://soundcloud.com/ashsparkle_chika
    https://www.youtube.com/user/AshTSparkle/

  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by ChristianeSparkle View Post
    What caught my eyes was what was said below.

    Now place your hand palm up against your chest. While still looking forward blow air at your hand (pretty much straight down). This is the setting I use to have a full sound in the high register.

    For the high range you need to have firm tissue vibrating against firm tissue. This is when you curl the lips in slightly to have the "weathered" tissue of the outer lips creating the vibrations. This is firmer tissue and will allow the lip to vibrate at an even faster rate when combined with good air speed and a smaller apperture.

    Wondering if that is what I should be paying attention to? My high range air flow is definitely not pointing downwards at all, it's probably at almost the same angle as the others, which is slightly pointed downwards (which means I squeeze my lips more, I am guessing).

    The part of the lips is also an interesting point, as it seems like I am supposed to curl my lips inwards?

    Not sure if I am doing it wrongly, I was just testing it out a little, and it feels like my teeth are biting into my lips when I try to keep my air direction downwards.
    I think you have seen this advice already, but I very much prefer this type of approach:

    http://www.dwerden.com/forum/showthr...and-High-Range

    As a supplement to the above, I like another bit I read about. Choose a short melody line you know well and like. Play it in a moderate high register for you. Then work it up a half step at a time over subsequent days. You have to focus on the feeling of the line and "sell" it. This will guide you to the right technique.

    And I have 2 follow-up pieces of advice (click to expand):

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    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    Alliance Mouthpiece (DC3)
    YouTube: dwerden
    Facebook: davewerden
    Twitter: davewerden
    Instagram: davewerdeneuphonium

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