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Thread: A different question regarding range and the high G

  1. #1

    A different question regarding range and the high G

    Hi all.

    I'm pretty new to euphonium and I've come across an interesting problem. While working on improving range, I've come to realize that I am having considerable difficulty getting a high (3rd ledger line BC) G. Not because of lip fatigue, but because the note is so finicky. I typically overshoot but I can't gradually slide into the G. No matter how slow I take it, I somehow just skip over the partial completely. I've tried pressing all three valves, working up to the partial, and then working chromatically to the G. G-flat and A are not a problem, at least not more of a problem than I'd expect at my skill level. It's just this particular note is so freakishly picky.

    Now I have gotten the G and I've even been able to hold it, but I'll lose it if I so much as move an eyebrow. The only embrochure that's ever worked is so different from my "normal" one (suddenly have to switch to upper lip dominance when I don't need to for any other notes, including higher ones) that this CAN'T be right.

    Is getting this note down a typical newbie problem? I know some notes are a bear to get right on certain instruments. But nothing has given me this much trouble before. I have been trying to sound this note for weeks and it's not an exaggeration to say I've seen absolutely no improvement on this. I don't know what to do outside of talking to a teacher, or at least a more experianced player, in person. I guess I'm just wondering if I'm not the only one who's struggled with this.

  2. #2
    No, you're not the only one! Our instruments are finicky all by themselves, and each has its own quirks. AND our embouchures are also finicky to some extent.

    Can you buzz the note on your mouthpiece? I'd suggest half covering the end with your little finger to add roughly the same resistance as the horn provides. You may find that your chops have a natural "break" at that point. Vocalists usually have a break in their range somewhere, which is between their head voice and their chest voice. Our lips can have similar breaks. Try a smooth gliss on the mouthpiece from low to high and see if the rising pitch jumps suddenly at any point. Mine does, and the represents and area where I need extra attention in my practice. The break may never go away, just as a singer's break does not, but we learn to deal with it.

    The horn can also have some funny notes. Play the lower G with 3rd valve, then switch to the upper G with 3rd valve. It may be a little flat, but if it works better for you, practice with that fingering for a while. When your G is more dependable, change to 12 and see if it is magically better. We can often break through the stubbornness of our chops by doing such exercises. It probably won't be a permanent fix, but it may help you work through the issue and get better over time.

    You could also try a friend's horn and have them try yours. The differences might reveal a horn-based tendency.
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    Alliance Mouthpiece (DC3)
    YouTube: dwerden
    Facebook: davewerden
    Twitter: davewerden
    Instagram: davewerdeneuphonium

  3. #3
    I can't believe I never thought to try the third valve.

    That helped a lot actually. Or at least it allowed me to climb the next rung. It's inconsistent but at least once I was able to play it in the context of a scale, which is more than I can say before. Thanks for the tip! And it's good to know I'm not crazy.

  4. #4
    As indicated, there are three variables- chops, horns, and mouthpieces. I was a music major and teacher back during ancient days but have been playing euph for about 8 months.
    I have two old brand name horns (thus far). On horn #1 with a Wick Euroshank mp, I can play G and A flat pretty easily but until recently couldn't play any higher. On this horn I have finally found the key to setting the embouchure to play A and B flat-- but only under limited circumstances. Is is all me? maybe not. On the other horn, an old and very cheap Besson (small shank R Muck mp), I found that I could scoot up to C and D pretty easily.

    The horn swap is a good idea, as is experimenting with different mouthpieces. Of course embouchure position and conditioning are where the commitment lies. Think "hound dog" (metaphor compliments of Don Kneeburg) and keep those corners tight.

  5. #5
    An additional note based on recent experience. Discussion on another website recommended a Wick 6BM MP for my model horn so that's what I have been using for a number of months. I was tempted by a low online price for a used gold plate Wick 6BY -- what a difference - immediately better horn performance from bottom to top including much better performance in the upper register. I'm not advocating either of these mouthpieces, but the principle is to do some experimentation to find the best mouthpiece for you and your horn.

  6. #6
    I have a similar issue with my G on my Yamaha 642 Neo. It's not terrible or anything, but I do notice that it's the one note in my upper range that I tend to miss the most often. Well, that and B natural.
    I wonder if there is correlation because they're the same fingering.

    In any case, if I'm playing, and I want a better chance of hitting it, I definitely cheat and use the 3rd valve. For whatever reason, it comes out more consistently for me - maybe less bends in tubing?
    I checked the note with my chromatic tuner and it doesn't seem to be notably worse than my 1-2 combination.

    Good luck figuring out the problem!
    My horn: Yamaha 642II Neo. My mouthpieces: Yamaha 51D, Yamaha 53SH, Denis Wick SM4X Ultra, Doug Elliot 104 J8

  7. #7
    Decades ago I noticed on my Besson New Standard that the middle G was not quite as free-feeling (or sounding) with 12 as with 3. My conclusion then, which I still hold to, is that there are fewer bends, as speculated above. It only stands to reason. The degree of difference noticed varies from brand to brand, and I think overall the horns today are more consistent with various fingerings than the ones from decades ago.
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    Alliance Mouthpiece (DC3)
    YouTube: dwerden
    Facebook: davewerden
    Twitter: davewerden
    Instagram: davewerdeneuphonium

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Summerfield, Florida Sturgis, SD (summers)
    Posts
    1,870
    I have perhaps a rather unusual method of being able to play the concert G above tuning Bb consistently and with confidence. Everyone knows the famous euphonium solo in the 2nd Holst Suite, right? The two notes that are played prior to the G both times in that solo, namely the C and D are the "springboards" for me to the upper G. I get to the G more by way of a slur than tonguing the note. I almost never, ever miss that note in this solo. In fact, my band director said to me when I played it recently, "you don't seem to have trouble with the high G. Most of my high school kids were pretty inconsistent on it." I told him I "never" miss it, which might have been a bit of a stretch. I then proceeded to play the C, D, A about 20 times in a row. No misses. So, what does that have to do with anything? I play the Holst solo often just to ingrain the "feel" of that G note. I then use my muscle memory to hit that note in other pieces of music. For instance, I recently played "Morceau Symphonique" about a dozen times with one of the bands I play in. There is a phrase about half way through (bottom of the first page in my music) that starts with a quarter note high G. I simply think Holst 2nd Suite and hit that note using my muscle memory of that note from the Holst Suite. I even think of the two leading notes (C, D) prior to playing it, although that might not be possible or practical with other music. I do occasionally miss the G, particularly when it is the first note of a phrase, but many more times than not, if I think Holst, I play the G fine. This whole thing might not help anyone else, but it helps me!!

    A confession: I do have trouble sometimes with the high A. That note is much more tenuous for me than the high G. I haven't found a similar method for the high A, other than the piece made famous by Tommy Dorsey, "I'm Getting Sentimental Over You" in the lower range that most big bands play today. So, the first phrase starts, A, Bb, D, F, A, the last A being an octave above the first A. But I play that on trombone, and that doesn't transfer over so easily to euphonium, particularly when I use a small bore trombone. So, still working on the high A....
    Last edited by John Morgan; 07-29-2017 at 07:41 PM.
    John Morgan
    The U.S. Army Band (Pershing's Own) 1971-1976
    Adams E3 Custom Series Euphonium, 1956 B&H Imperial Euphonium,
    1973 F. E. Olds & Son Studio Model T-31 Baritone
    Adams TB1 Tenor Trombone, Yamaha YBL-822G Bass Trombone
    Year Round Except Summer:
    Kingdom of the Sun (KOS) Concert Band, Ocala, FL (Euphonium)
    KOS Brass Quintet (Trombone, Euphonium)
    Summer Only:
    Rapid City Municipal Band, Rapid City, SD (Euphonium)
    Rapid City New Horizons Band (Euphonium)

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Indianapolis area
    Posts
    1,003
    "Tommy Dorsey, "I'm Getting Sentimental Over You" in the lower range that most big bands play today. So, the first phrase starts, A, Bb, D, F, A, the last A being an octave above the first A. But I play that on trombone, and that doesn't transfer over so easily to euphonium, particularly when I use a small bore trombone. So, still working on the high A...."

    Play it in D like the original ;-) ;-)

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Summerfield, Florida Sturgis, SD (summers)
    Posts
    1,870
    Well, I would play it in D (up to a high C#) if the bands I play/played in used that arrangement. But alas, they all seem to use the Bb version. It is "sweet" playing it in the original key as Tommy Dorsey did.
    John Morgan
    The U.S. Army Band (Pershing's Own) 1971-1976
    Adams E3 Custom Series Euphonium, 1956 B&H Imperial Euphonium,
    1973 F. E. Olds & Son Studio Model T-31 Baritone
    Adams TB1 Tenor Trombone, Yamaha YBL-822G Bass Trombone
    Year Round Except Summer:
    Kingdom of the Sun (KOS) Concert Band, Ocala, FL (Euphonium)
    KOS Brass Quintet (Trombone, Euphonium)
    Summer Only:
    Rapid City Municipal Band, Rapid City, SD (Euphonium)
    Rapid City New Horizons Band (Euphonium)

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