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Thread: 4 Valve Bellfront Baritone

  1. 4 Valve Bellfront Baritone

    I was just wondering if anyone had any clue if the American Style bellfront Baritones can play the low b natural below the staff. I know that there are compensating and non compensating euphoniums or baritones, but was just curious to see if anyone knows or has one. I know Schiller makes one of these types and I have seen a couple nice refurbished baritones on ebay with the detachable bells. I'm really interested in this type of horn because it isn't seen a whole lot and I do enjoy seeing this baritone in polka bands. I understand they used to use these types of baritones with 3 valves in earlier marching bands, too. The only band I can think of that uses this style is Ohio State Marching band. If anyone has anything else to pitch in about this type of horn, go right ahead. Any replies will be greatly appreciated, thank you!

  2. #2
    I'm not quite sure what you are asking, but here is some "stuff."

    A 4-valve American-style "baritone" (which I classify as a small euphonium) can play naturally down to a C, but then the pedal Bb is the next note. You could use alternate slide positions to cover this, but it requires learning some new fingerings. You pull 3 until it plays what you usually use 23 to play. Then you could get the low B.

    A 3-valve, compensating or not, can't play that note naturally. It bottoms out at E. But you can play false tones to cover the missing notes to low Bb.

    FYI, a compensating 4-valve euphonium is about a quarter step sharp on low B, so it's not a great note on any euphonium without some kind of trickery. Even a trigger won't get you all the way there, but it helps of course.

    A Yamaha 321 with the "5th valve" could do this, I think. It is a rotary valve built into the 4th-valve slide and offers many options.
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    Alliance Mouthpiece (DC3)
    YouTube: dwerden
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  3. I do apologize for the confusion. I didn't mean to jumble up what I wanted to know. Basically, I wanted to know if it was possible to play a low b natural on that type of horn, because with a non compensating euphonium, you can't really do that. Also I should have clarified that it would be interesting to learn some history about that type of horn. I guess I should stop rambling sometimes haha! Once again I am sorry about the wording but I do thank you for your reply so far, Mr. Werden.

  4. Also just reading what you wrote, I just learned that even a compensating euphonium's low b natural isn't perfect. I always thought it was a lot better but that is very interesting. I am mainly a trumpet player so I have much to learn!

    Now false tones are difficult for me on baritone and euphonium, but easier on trombone for me for some reason. As for the new fingerings for the 4 valve baritone, what would they be? And would you only pull out third valve slide? Lastly, I would like to know more about the 5th valve on the Yamaha 321, as I have played a regularly. I truly appreciate your responses.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brassplayer18 View Post
    I would like to know more about the 5th valve on the Yamaha 321, as I have played a regularly. I truly appreciate your responses.
    You remove the 4th valve slide from your YEP321 and replace it with one of these linked below to add a 5th valve (rotary). Suggested fingerings also at that link.

    https://www.hornguys.com/products/st...-321-euphonium
    Rick Floyd
    Miraphone 5050 - Warburton BJ / RF mpc
    YEP-641S (recently sold)
    Doug Elliott - 102 rim; I-cup; I-9 shank


    "Always play with a good tone, never louder than lovely, never softer than supported." - author unknown.
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  6. #6
    I was interested in this question so I got out old euphs and the tuner.

    Old Conn Connstellation euph w 4 short action valves

    Old 1912 Besson prototype w 4 valves - not an American baritone but close enough for this experiment.

    Low F 4th valve as it should be. As I went lower, the chromatic valve combinations didn't have enough tubing for full half steps.

    Per tuner, 1234 was C on both horns. could get lower with a tuning slide kicker or manually pulling individual valve slides.

    BTW - I play in a community band and have seen E flat a couple of times, nothing lower. Easy note for a 4 valve horn, but challenging for a 3 valve, especially in a group of sixteenth notes.

  7. #7
    Have you seen this article? It explains the science behind the problem:

    http://www.dwerden.com/eu-articles-comp.cfm
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    Alliance Mouthpiece (DC3)
    YouTube: dwerden
    Facebook: davewerden
    Twitter: davewerden
    Instagram: davewerdeneuphonium

  8. Thank you everyone for the replies and information. It's great to learn new things every once and a while. All this will help me out if I want to get a certain baritone or euphonium. Again, all is greatly appreciated!

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