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Thread: Cross-Threading Valve Caps

  1. #1

    Cross-Threading Valve Caps

    This topic comes up often, and I have had trouble on some of my horns. But once I figured out this tip, life got a lot easier! It should help anyone with piston valves get the valve caps on smoothly after oiling or cleaning:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhMzkgQQtSw
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    Alliance Mouthpiece (DC3)
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  2. #2
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    Great tip Dave. I learned when having difficulty in starting a nut on a bolt, to first turn it counter-clockwise (which helps to position or level the nut to the bolt, or in this situation, the valve cap to the valve casing), then turn it clockwise. Thanks.

  3. #3
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    Yes, great tip Dave!

    My M5050 can be a bit fussy to start the valve caps. I was complaining a bit about them to a brass tech friend of mine and told him that I got spoiled with the Yamaha valve caps. Yamaha threads are more course and faster... if that makes sense. The tech told me that since they're courser they are deeper - which means the wall of the casing is a thinner in those areas and easier for the casing to get out-of-round. He then said it was better to have finer and slower threads.
    Last edited by RickF; 07-14-2017 at 07:04 PM.
    Rick Floyd
    Miraphone 5050 - Warburton BJ / RF mpc
    YEP-641S (recently sold)
    Doug Elliott - 102 rim; I-cup; I-9 shank


    "Always play with a good tone, never louder than lovely, never softer than supported." - author unknown.
    Symphonic Band of the Palm Beaches
    El Cumbanchero (Raphael Hernandez, arr. Naohiro Iwai)
    Chorale and Shaker Dance
    (John Zdechlik)

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by enhite View Post
    Great tip Dave. I learned when having difficulty in starting a nut on a bolt, to first turn it counter-clockwise (which helps to position or level the nut to the bolt, or in this situation, the valve cap to the valve casing), then turn it clockwise. Thanks.
    Yep, Ernie, that is exactly what I do. Let the cap sit on top of the casing and screw backwards lightly, then screw in the right direction. Seems to work for those pesky ones, of which my Wessex Dolce is one. Haven't tried Dave's tip, might be worth giving that a shot as well. I also push the piston down a bit to take any spring pressure off.
    John Morgan
    The U.S. Army Band (Pershing's Own) 1971-1976
    Adams E3 Custom Series Euphonium, 1956 B&H Imperial Euphonium,
    1973 F. E. Olds & Son Studio Model T-31 Baritone
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    Year Round Except Summer:
    Kingdom of the Sun (KOS) Concert Band, Ocala, FL (Euphonium)
    KOS Brass Quintet (Trombone, Euphonium)
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    Rapid City Municipal Band, Rapid City, SD (Euphonium)
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  5. #5
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    Nice video, and a good tip!

    There's quite a bit of variation amongst instruments in terms of the threading, the quality of the threading (depth, uniformity, precision), and the hardness of the brass. This can translate into some frustrating differences.

    I NEVER have had any problems in cross-threading the valve caps on my (1960s) Amati oval euphonium or my 1924 Buescher tuba. The threads are cut very precisely and definitively, with good depth. The (1990s) Cerveny rotary tuba I had sometimes gave me a little struggle, but nothing too severe.

    Now comes the Mack Brass euphonium, the Wessex tuba, and the Schiller trombone. Much greater care must be taken and the risk of cross-threading is substantially higher. It's all because of the quality of the threading and (to some degree) the fineness of the threads. The Schiller is actually (and suprisingly, to me) the easiest of the lot. In part, this is because the rotary valve caps are just "right there" and easy to get to and to get on. The Mack Brass (several years old now) seems to have the softest brass, but the Wessex (now also several years old) isn't far behind. And the threads on all of these are pretty fine.

    In my experience, finer threads give me more problems in terms of initial alignment and getting started. The Buescher and Amati threads seem definitely coarser. Dave also demonstrated his technique only on the three top valves. The forth one tends to be even more problematic (for me, at least) unless I put the instrument on its side so the valve is oriented vertically.

    Finally, while it helps to put some oil on the valve cap threads, I've found that something a bit thicker works even better. When I run into any problems with valve caps I put a small bit of Dow Corning High Vacuum Grease (silicone) on the cap threads. From the beginning, I had a problem with the second valve cap on my Wessex tuba threading on and seating correctly. Jonathan even sent me some replacement caps, but they didn't improve things. On magnified inspection it appears that the threads were just somewhat poorly cut on the valve casing. Using the silicone grease made it work well enough, and over time seems to have resulted in improvement to the point that I don't have the problem any longer. Sometimes, if threads are cut a little sloppy or with worn tooling, the pitch, thread angle, or depth will not be uniform or the thread depth will be too shallow (sometimes just in places), and this will make correct thread engagement more difficult and sloppy. In such cases, using a grease of some sort as a void filling agent can greatly improve the function of the threads.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by ghmerrill View Post
    Dave also demonstrated his technique only on the three top valves. The forth one tends to be even more problematic (for me, at least) unless I put the instrument on its side so the valve is oriented vertically.
    Someday I may do a demonstration of oiling the valves. In the meantime, I recommend always having the cylinder oriented vertically when inserting the pistons. That helps get the spring centered in the bottom of the casing. So my horn is at a different angle when I'm doing the 4th valve vs. 123.
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    Alliance Mouthpiece (DC3)
    YouTube: dwerden
    Facebook: davewerden
    Twitter: davewerden
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  7. Since you mention it, I have always wondered why instrument manufacturers don't design a better way of lubricating valves. It seems kind of silly to me to have to disassemble the instrument in order to lubricate it. Can you imagine having to disassemble your car's engine every few miles to squirt some oil on the moving parts? I have heard of squirting oil down the lead pipe or in the #1 compensating tubing, but neither of those things seems very effective. I wonder why it wouldn't work to create a very small port for each cylinder (the port being in a position such that it would not align with the air passages regardless of valve position) with a refillable reservoir. It would keep a more or less constant supply of oil on the valve and it could be designed such that movement of the valves allows more oil to be dispensed. I suppose there might be a down side to it, but I wonder if anyone has tried something like this.

  8. #8
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    One tip I can share is if during rehearsal or concert and #1 valve needs oil, I oil thru the comp slide. With it laying on my lap (bell to my left), I pull the 1st comp slide out, add a few drops of oil while exercising the valve. It's not as good as oiling the normal way where you can spin the valve, but in a pinch works well.
    Rick Floyd
    Miraphone 5050 - Warburton BJ / RF mpc
    YEP-641S (recently sold)
    Doug Elliott - 102 rim; I-cup; I-9 shank


    "Always play with a good tone, never louder than lovely, never softer than supported." - author unknown.
    Symphonic Band of the Palm Beaches
    El Cumbanchero (Raphael Hernandez, arr. Naohiro Iwai)
    Chorale and Shaker Dance
    (John Zdechlik)

  9. #9
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    A couple of points regarding a "better way".

    First, your car engine actually recirculates the oil, and does so through a filter. However, it's true that there are some applications in which a "total loss" lubrication system is used -- which typically means that you have an oil reservoir from which oil is drawn until the reservoir is empty. At that point either you stop your vehicle (car, motorcycle, whatever), or it will stop by itself when the engine seizes. It is uncommon to find such approaches other than in short duration races on a closed track. There are also motorcycle chain oiler that (using vacuum presssure from the motor) provide a constant regulated drip of oil onto the chain (again, from a reservoir). They work marvelously well and I used to use them when I was riding bikes (though on a BMW you don't need it since you don't have a drive chain!).

    Second, I know of at least one person (a well-known repair tech) who has carefully drilled a hole in each of his valve caps so that he can add oil through this hole and not have to remove the valve. This approach certainly will work (up to a point -- you really do need to clean off the piston from time to time, eh?). But I'm not inclined to use it since with the synthetic valve oil I use, I can go a substantial amount of time without re-lubricating. If you use "natural" oil (and particularly pretty thin petroleum oil), the oil get's washed away much more quickly and needs to be replaced in one way or another. This is really an issue if you use "traditional" oil and need to re-oil frequently.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

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