Smaller/lighter euphonium or baritone?

[Joan]

I am new to this Forum, and admittedly a wannabe. While I had a strong music and band background (I was our high school's first female drum major some decades ago, and first chair clarinetist for four years), it has been a long time, and I would like to start over on a new instrument, namely a baritone or euphonium. I just want to enjoy playing some beautiful melodies and possibly play in a community band or other ensemble. I love the warm tone and range of these instruments.

Since I'm short (5 ft.), I'm looking for something on the smaller end of the size range. I found a very old (1893) JW Pepper baritone, silver plated, in excellent condition, plays well, etc., which is a good size for me. I would like to hear from a few of you who may have some knowledge of this type of instrument. Do you think it would be suitable? I don't want to spend a lot of money at this point for obvious reasons. And I am skeptical of the Chinese made horns; I've heard they have a lot of problems with the valves, which generally cannot be repaired. I look forward to your input!

[davewerden]

Welcome to the forum and to the low brass world!

I would caution anyone who is not already fairly accomplished on an instrument against buying an antique horn. There are numerous reasons for that, but foremost is that you could have serious intonation problems playing alongside modern instruments. Also, the response of such an instrument could lead you to wrong conclusions and/or bad habits.

What is your budget? That might help narrow the suggestions.

Off the top of my head I would think a used 3- or 4-valve American baritone/euphonium might be a good choice. By that I mean one that is NOT a British-style baritone horn, but the small-euphonium variety that were once so popular in all our band programs. They are light and easy to handled. The 4-valve versions are heavier, so if weight is a big concern stay with 3 valves. But 3-valve horns are pretty sharp on the 123 fingering, with is the low B-natural concert (C# treble) and low E-natural (F# treble clef).

Here is a lovely 4-valve King. This is like the horn I played in high school, except mine had the curved bell. But it is in such good shape that is costs $1,000:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/King-2268-Eu...-/302344241824

Here is a 3-valve, which looks rougher but is probably quite serviceable. Current bid is $340:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-1963...-/391808350867

How am I doing so far?

[John Morgan]

Wow, that $1000 price for the King 2268 is an EXCELLENT buy. Joan, you might might want to consider that.

As for the Chinese horns, there are some coming from China now that are pretty darn good horns for a little over $1000. Don't be too skeptical of the Chinese horns, especially if you choose one like Wessex or Mack Brass. The baritones from Wessex (3 valve, compensated) can be had for around $800. They are darn good horns. And smaller sized for you. I can relate, I have a smurf for a wife, but a wonderful wife nonetheless.

[Joan]

You're doing great, Dave. I like the King, and I could spend $1000. I have never used e-Bay before and so I'm unfamiliar with the process. My size concerns include how the valves are spaced; I want the valves to be close together. Also, if the horn is too long, it probably would not be a good fit. What happens with e-Bay if you purchase and it doesn't work out? Thanks so much for your reply and for including the links to these horns. I could spend even slightly more, but would prefer not to.

I do have confidence in the guys at the store where I found the JW Pepper. And that horn is a good fit, size-wise. I do have a few concerns about it, and that's why I posted my question. If you think of any other horns to suggest, I would certainly welcome that.

Joan

Joan

[Joan]

John, thanks so much for your reply to my post. A 3-valve compensating horn sounds very attractive for $800, if it has repairable valves. I'll certainly keep it in mind.

[Joan]

Would the Wessex you refer to be on e-Bay, or something I would order through the company? I assume you are generalizing and not referring to a specific horn. Is that right?

[Joan]

Dave and John, What do you think of that Yamaha YEP 642 on e-Bay, compared with the King?

[davewerden]

Fit-wise the King should be about as good as it gets for modern euphoniums. Because horns of this class are a smaller bore size, the valves can be a little closer together compared to modern, larger-bore horns. And I have had some fairly small students playing horns like this, so I suspect finding a good position would not be a problem.

Most eBay sellers do not offer returns unless the description is inaccurate, and that is the case here.

eBay has a nice buyer protection plan, which is a huge assurance over and above Craigslist, for example. Fraud should not worry you much for eBay (although I still like to make sure the whole listing looks "real" - this one seems legit). This seller has a 100% approval rating from 161 transactions, so the odds are very good.

I generally pay with PayPal, which also adds a measure of safety of its own. If you don't wish to make PayPal a long-term relationship, it has ways to let you pay with a Visa/etc. using the PayPal mechanism. I did that the first time I used them, but it was so many years ago I can't recall the details.

The new Chinese clones tend to have larger bores, and so would have somewhat wider valve spacing in theory. I have not compared directly, though.

The reason I chose to focus on these American horns is that they were the mainstay of concert bands for about a century, and they fit very nicely. They are also easier for a smaller person to handle (although there are some very petite folks playing the new Pro-level horns).

A good Conn would also be a nice choice, but I don't see any that are of the same quality as this particular King. Here is a 3-valve example, which is a decent horn. However, it is not the top-of-the-line model like the King is. But it may end up going for a lot less money:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Conn-Elkhart.../332247411407?

[davewerden]

Dave and John, What do you think of that Yamaha YEP 642 on e-Bay, compared with the King?

Do you mean this one?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Yamaha-YEP-6...-/192213753068

It is around $1500 now, but will probably not sell for less than $3,000. I could go for quite a bit more than 3k and still be a fair selling price. It has wider valve spacing, and I'm not as confident about the height of the horn for you, although it might work. The 842 is a little shorter, I believe, but usually sells for more since that is the top model.

Otherwise, the 642 is a nice horn in general. Good tone and response and very solidly built.

[Joan]

Yes, that's the one. I can't go above the current bid price, so I'll forget that one. Do you have a recommendation for the price I should bid for the King?

[davewerden]

eBay has different options for their listings. This one has only a buy-it-now choice, which means the $1k price is what you pay, plus shipping.

[John Morgan]

Would the Wessex you refer to be on e-Bay, or something I would order through the company? I assume you are generalizing and not referring to a specific horn. Is that right?

Go here to see the specific Wessex baritone (BR140): https://www.wessex-tubas.com/shop/eu...tone/baritone/

I own a Wessex euphonium which I am very happy with. I am a pro level player. The Wessex euphonium cost me about $1100 or so a couple years ago. It is not my main horn, but one I used when in between a couple of high end horns. I have not played on the Wessex baritone, but it seems to have a great reputation from those who know or own the horn. Wessex is a good company, takes care of its customers. I don't know exactly what you heard about valves being repairable or not. In the first place, I wouldn't think the valves on a Wessex horn are necessarily going to need repair, at least in the short term. In the long term, maybe they will, but I don't see this as a problem. Wessex stands behind its instruments and should be there if needed. You hear a lot of stuff from people and dealers and sellers about Chinese instruments, don't believe everything you hear in this regard. The Chinese instruments have come a long, long way, especially a select few being sold by companies like Wessex and Mack Brass.

So, if you want the smaller baritone horn, I think the Wessex would be an excellent choice.

I personally would not even consider the JW Pepper when I could have the Wessex, or the King mentioned above, for not too much, relatively speaking.

I think the King would suit you better than the Yamaha 642 if you go that route.

[davewerden]

The Wessex baritone is a fine choice if you are not going to play in a concert band and like the smaller, brighter sound of the baritone. But it is not what I would recommend for a concert band setting.

Here is a solo I did on baritone horn:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiWHCK436gU

And here is the same solo in the same room on euphonium:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDEofUXQxrU

In this case the baritone actually works well on a piece that was originally for trumpet. But you can hear the tonal differences. The baritone would not very well with a band's euphonium section. However, it can be a dandy choice for a church brass group or something like that.

[John Morgan]

What Dave says about euphonium being a better choice for concert band, I agree. I only mentioned the baritone as that was what you were considering with the old JW Pepper horn.

Everyone else: Mark those two YouTube videos Dave refers to above. An EXCELLENT way to hear the baritone and euphonium on the same piece in the same setting. I also heard Dave play the same piece on double belled euphonium. Great way to compare. There should be a perpetual link to these for anyone wanting to hear the difference in the baritone, euphonium and double belled euphonium.

[bbocaner]

a "baritone" from a 19th century american manufacturer IS a euphonium, and not a baritone in the current usage of the word.

I am in complete agreement that you want a euphonium, and not an antique. Baritone is a much more difficult instrument and doesn't fit into any ensembles unless you play with a british-style brass band. And modern instruments are much easier to play and tune so much better.