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Thread: Euphonium player switching to tuba

  1. #1

    Euphonium player switching to tuba

    You all did a beautiful job not quite two years ago helping me sort out horns for my then 10 year old, first year band student. He has played for two years and is asking to move to tuba, so I need your help again!

    I don't have a lot of money to spend - maybe $2000 at the most. My son will be 12 at the beginning of next school year. He is just barely over 5'3" and just jumped 3 shoe sizes, so he may grow a bit this summer.

    His director is recommending a BBb tuba, and said he could probably handle a full sized instrument. But I'm seeing in a thread here a recommendation of a smaller instrument for someone 3 inches taller, so now I'm not so sure. There will be a total of one or two tubas in the section in a band of about 40 kids.

    What brands do you recommend? Do I need to purchasing a stand, or is that something we won't know until we get a tuba? Oh, and how much difference do all those dings and dents I see in used horn listings really make to anything besides looks (looks don't bother my son or myself)?

    Thank you in advance for any advice!

  2. #2
    This is really better answered by the folks on Tubenet. But for starters, a BBb is standard for bands these days. Eb's are cheaper (usually) and smaller but much less commonly found in bands these days. Most British students start on Eb and American students start on BBb. An Eb would work just fine for your son, but it will make it harder for him if he continues in a marching band because most sousaphones are BBb. Your budget puts you in the used instrument area. Do expect dents and finish problems (aka the horn may not be pretty). A few dents will not hurt the tuba sound if they are after the valve section. Look on Craig's list for local sellers. An Olds 99 or a Conn 10J or 12J would serve your son for a long time. Make sure the valves are in good shape and all the slides move easily. Yamaha makes good student horns. I personally do not like the sound the small ones produce. Stay away from really old horns (older than 1940), they can be high or low pitch, which is fixable, but more than you want to deal with. Front action valves are preferred by most players, but top action valves work fine and the horns are usually cheaper. Stay away from recording bell tubas. They are top heavy and will be hard for your some to manage. You do not need a stand right away. You'll know if you need one after your son plays the horn for a while. I hope some of this helps.

  3. #3
    opus37:

    Thanks for that great response! I'm not qualified to talk about this particular topic, so it's cool that the forum has so much diversity of knowledge among the members.

    Would you know if this Wessex is a good bet?

    http://www.wessex-tubas.com/shop/stu...ruments/tb330/
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    Alliance Mouthpiece (DC3)
    YouTube: dwerden
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  4. #4
    Join Date
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    Central North Carolina
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    Although I love Eb tubas, and they do have their advantages as a beginning instrument (as Roger Bobo has pointed out), I agree that the BBb horn is the only reasonable choice for a student in US schools.

    The problem with that Wessex 'Imp' tuba is that it's ... well ... too impish for a general purpose tuba. It's cute and small, but if you start a middle school student on that, he'll/she'll need another horn in high school. I have by the way, played with a middle school student (8th grade, I think) who was managing a full-size top-action Yamaha tuba very well. But he's a bit older.

    Tom McGrady used to offer a really nice (and inexpensive) 3/4 size BBb piston horn, but hasn't done so for several years. However, I see that he now offers this 3/4 size rotary BBb: http://www.mackbrass.com/MACK-TU520L__BBb_Tuba.php. This is a really nice-looking horn, and MUCH more versatile than the BBb Wessex Imp. It is also more expensive. But it would be useable at least through high school (and beyond, for a lifetime, except for a tuba performance major).

    I do also recommend that you at least look at the Schiller stuff (which can be quite good for the price). Jim Laabs has several used tubas available now for less than $1,000, and a couple of these appear to be a good choice for your son -- some as a "temporary horn" (through middle school), and others as longer term prospects: https://www.jimlaabsmusicstore.com/store/used-tubas/.

    Otherwise, as previously recommended, a used tuba in good playing shape (it doesn't matter what it looks like -- though sometimes a kid has to be convinced of this if everyone else has a "shiny" one) would likely be a real win. I personally don't particularly like the Olds 99 horns, but a huge number of people do, and these can often be had for quite decent prices. The Conns are nice, but unless you get lucky, they can be a bit pricey.

    For a kid this young, there are some added considerations, especially if you're trying to factor growth into the equation. Most players will favor a front-action horn (I don't), and so top-action horns tend to be a bit cheaper. Top-action horns also have the advantage of their valves being in a much more protected location where it is much more difficult for them to be abused (knocked, bent, etc.) -- a very good feature for middle and high school instruments. A front-action horn also requires reaching around the instrument in order to use the valves -- and a young student may not have the reach (for a couple or more years) to make this possible or comfortable. And you want him to be comfortable with the horn or everything becomes a problem in playing it. If you get a larger (larger that 3/4) horn, definitely have him use it with a tuba stand -- or he'll just be wrestling the horn most of the time. In fact, I'd recommend a stand even with a 3/4 horn for younger players. It isn't sissy -- it's practical and will allow you to be a better musician.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  5. #5
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    Dec 2011
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    Central North Carolina
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    2,368
    Oh, ... one more thing: You don't NEED 4 valves. You really don't. Not on a BBb -- for anything you'll encounter. The 4th can be a convenience. And the convenience can be pretty minor given how hard it is (hand ligaments being what they are) to play 4th valve combinations. When I had my Cerveny BBb I ended up rarely using the 4th valve, instead using the (lapped and vented) 1st valve and tuning slide to handle intonation issues. So if you find a nice old 3-valve horn, don't hesitate to go for it.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  6. #6
    I would absolutely do four valves for a student going into middle school. Look for a used Conn 5J or King 2341.
    --
    Barry

  7. My recommendation would be the Dillon 1795/Mack TU200 -- 4/4 size horn, but relatively slender and light, and very easy to handle. I think rotary valves are a good bet for younger players because the key travel is much shorter than on pistons and they require less continual maintenance.

    I'm 6'2" and find piston-front tubas to more of a struggle to handle compared to piston-top or rotary-front. I wouldn't recommend them for a middle school player unless they're using a stand.
    Last edited by jimpjorps; 05-12-2017 at 10:16 AM.

  8. #8
    The only problem with Chinese instruments I see is that the brass is typically extremely soft. They tend to dent if you just look at them wrong.

    I've heard a lot that top action can be very uncomfortable for kids to deal with. It'd probably be more familiar to a euphonium player for sure, but top action tubas tend to be ergonomically problematic and I think that's probably exasperated for a smaller player.
    --
    Barry

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Central North Carolina
    Posts
    2,368
    The "soft brass" problem is a concern, but it's changed quite a bit in recent years. The bell brass on my Mack Euph is quite soft and will (almost if you look at it with too much intensity) dent easily. On the other hand the same was true of my red brass Cerveny -- though that's what you get with red brass. My Wessex tuba seems to have noticeably more durable brass (definitely in the bell section), though still a bit soft for things like the valve caps. However, I've seen statements (from Jonathan and others) that there have been even more improvements in the brass in the past couple of years. A lot of what you're willing to risk in terms of durability depends on the kid and the environment at school. But also keep in mind that there are thousands of young students using these instruments from middle school onwards. And Jonathan has bee aggressively selling his tubas into the British market for a number of years now. And Tom into the US market. So it's a risk/benefit thing. Only the parent can really make that sort of decision based on the circumstances.

    Still, you definitely don't want a "soft brass" (or any other maintenance) problem with a young player. In terms of durability, it's hard to beat the older used US instruments. I think you could probably drop my anvil on my Buescher Eb horn, and then pick it up and still play it (the horn, not the anvil). Honestly, I do think that a Conn of an "appropriate size" would be ideal. You might try posting to the Tubenet forsale section, describe the situation, and see if someone has something. Also, take a look at Dan Schultz's site and email him to ask if he has anything else. He's got a couple now (http://thevillagetinker.com/horns_for_sale.htm) for under $2,000, and even has a Miraphone 186 for $2,250. That's a horn you could get, use for a decade, and probably sell for more than you paid for it. It's also quite durable. You might profit from asking Dan about good models for your son, and you can absolutely depend on Dan's very broad experience in this: http://thevillagetinker.com/. He'll be happy to talk about it.

    I don't find any difference ergonomically between top-action and front-action tubas (at least for me -- I can't make any claims about others), and I have relatively small hands for my size. But one thing you do need to be careful of (and it's hard to make the best choice if the instrument is just played for a few minutes in a brief trial) is the spread between the valves. A BBb tuba will generally (some Conns used offset valve stems) have greater distance between the valve caps just because of the piston bore size. But just the design and arrangement can make a difference for hands that aren't very large. The stretch -- especially to the 4th valve -- can get pretty painful pretty quickly and likely render it to be used "later" when the student grows and develops. Even then, in-line 4 valve horns present an ergonomic problem -- though this is not so pronounced in rotary actions (if the student can easily reach the valves). With a 3+1 Brit-style compensating tuba, you don't have this problem -- but you do have added weight. Always trade-offs.

    For several years I had an Eb Yamaha 321S that was a wonderful horn except for the stretch of the little finger to that 4th in-line (piston) valve. There are ways to get around this (if you end up going for a 4-valve horn) -- like playing the 4th valve with the left hand (which works on a top action horn IF you can reach it that way). On a front-action horn, it's pretty hard to do that and still hold onto the horn -- at least for me. Keep in mind that the Brits (for centuries, if not since the beginning of time) have been starting their kids on top-action Eb tubas (and moving to top-action BBb tubas later on, as they're inclined).

    But don't get caught up in a lot of speculative/theoretical top/front action concerns. Try horns and see how they work. There should be people in your area who have a variety of horns that they'd love to let a budding tuba player try. Try a variety if you can and see what seems to "fit" best.
    Last edited by ghmerrill; 05-12-2017 at 11:24 AM.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  10. #10
    Thankfully, we are part of a homeschool band program so the instrument only has to travel from home once a week. We've made it 2 years with only one minor incident with his euphonium. And "ugly" isn't a problem at all, I just didn't know which dents could affect playability. Honestly, I think he's convinced I won't be able to find one at all so he'll be pleased as punch with whatever is put in his hands. He seems to actually like the pre-purchase dents in his euphonium and knows them all well - kind of like knowing the feel of an old, comfortable chair.

    I've got leads on a couple of Yamaha YBB-321 instruments for less than $1500, neither of which would require me to ship. And I will check out some of the other brands and specific instruments you all have mentioned.

    Thank you all so much for your help!

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