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Thread: Euphonium concept- 5-Valve compensating system

  1. #1

    Euphonium concept- 5-Valve compensating system

    I was practicing earlier, and I got to thinking... 4-valve compensating horns are technically Bb euphoniums with a valve to switch to F tuba. That F tuba only really has 3 valves. So, the same problem that plagues 3-valve horns comes up in the lower octave- low C and low B are sharp. I figure most players kicked a slide somewhere to remedy this, but I figure there's another, much more complicated way... 5-valve compensating. So I got right to designing and modeling such a system.

    It took about 9 hours to model the example (most of that time was figuring out where all the tubing would go). This specimen is 0.578" main bore, for reference. The system is a little bit weird, but hear me out... Valves 1-3 are as usual. Valve 4 is an overbored quart valve (0.586" bore) and is not compensated. Valve 5 is another quart valve, overbored a little more (0.594"), and is compensated. So using the path of logic I used earlier, the open horn is a Bb euph with two quart valves. When the 5th valve goes down, it's a 4-valve F tuba. This way, you can use 4-5 and 2-4-5 for low C and B respectively, and thus they're better in tune.

    This arrangement is flexible on the finger work. You can play it as if it were 4+1, or play it as if it were 3+2. Notes have more alternate fingerings, though many aren't useful. Example- low D can be played 2-3-4, 1-2-5, or 3-5. C above the staff can be 3, 1-3, 4, 5, or 4-5. Combination 1-2-3-4-5 could give a very sharp double-pedal G, if you wanted one.

    Problems so far: Cost, ease of manufacturing (or lack thereof), and weight. Not to mention, low C and B are hardly ever written in euphonium parts... but if you find yourself in a pinch where there's a tuba part on the stand and a euph in your hands...
    even then...
    a 4-valve would probably be fine.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 5202ASP1.jpg   5202ASP2.jpg   5202ASP3.jpg   5202ASP4.jpg  
    Last edited by sirendude2015; 04-29-2017 at 10:48 PM. Reason: thread title was missing a "V"
    Avid horn collector, check my profile to see what I've got (not enough room to reasonably squeeze 14 horns down here!)
    YouTube Channel: TheNEWTrombonium

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Hidden Valley, AZ
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    That would keep the solder jockeys busy, no doubt.

    Higham in the UK built several 5V models, though non-compensating.

    Besson & Co. built the enharmonic brass series that came along after the Blaikley system, from cornets to BBb tubas. Beastly heavy horns, few were sold.

    Dennis
    1966 Besson 181 highly modified New Standard
    1918 Hawkes & Son euph 3&1 original
    1917 Conn C/D/Eb mellophone original
    1915 York Bb tenorhorn original

  3. #3
    There is a 5th valve option for the Yamaha 321 euphonium. Here is the information:
    https://www.hornguys.com/products/st...-321-euphonium.
    While it does not have the compensating system it would not need it as the 5th valve set to 2-3 combination gives the low B natural. Kinda like a double valve bass trombone set to F/Gb/D valves.

    It is too bad that euphoniums aren't set up like tubas. There are many BBb tubas with 5 valves or rotaries that are more ergonomic in my opinion. I do like your concept. Miraphone makes a 5 valve tenor tuba (model 565)- http://www.miraphone.info/en/instrum...right-4-valves . Miraphone makes a bell from version of this instrument (model 56B) : http://www.miraphone.info/en/instrum...t-4-valves-794 although it only have 4 valves. I have found rotary tubas in this configuration much lighter than the similar sized valve tubas.

    I have had similar thoughts about euphoniums. Maybe you could see if Wessex would consider a 5th valve for their new front valve euphonium? Or maybe the compensating system takes care of that.
    John Packer JP274L Euphonium
    __________________________
    “Don’t only practice your art, but force your way into its secrets, for it and knowledge can raise men to the divine.”
    ― Ludwig van Beethoven

  4. #4
    I converted my King to a 5 valve non compensating horn, and am really pleased with it

  5. "Lets make euphs the way tubas are made...."

    Sounds like a conversation from Tubenet. Personally, I think 3+1 compensating euphs are optimal. You can mostly use the 3 valve fingerings until you start replacing the 1-3 and 1-2-3 combinations with 4 and 2-4. The 2nd partial C and Cb are almost never in the literature. The C can be completely handled with a main tuning slide trigger for the horns that have one.

    Personally, I think the modern 3+1 comp euphs have some real benefits over valve front "tuba junior" designs. In the 1990s, the Besson Prestige started a trend to a straighter lead pipes that put the valve block in a more trumpet like position. This keeps the wrist straighter and the elbow up away from the body. If the horn is more nearly perpendicular to your chest rather than flat across the chest like earlier 3+1s and all valve front horns, then pressure is kept off the diaphragm. Breathing is aided and posture as well. Unike valve front tubas, we don't use tuba stands and we more often do solo work standing. I just find anything that puts the horn in the flat acoss my body position, an impediment to breathing and tiring to play when standing.

    Doug
    Sterling Virtuoso 1052HS & Adams E3 Prototype 0.70 Top Sprung valves
    Sterling Virtuoso 1050HS baritone
    New England Brass Band
    Winchendon Winds/Townsend Military Band

  6. #6
    I owned a Miraphone 56A 5-valve "Kaiser Baritone." It had some significant ergonomic and intonation issues. I bought a compensating euphonium and haven't looked back. In my engineering Practice I have found that when you see an example of "everybody does it that way" like euphoniums, there's a reason that the consensus has developed. And the reason is usually because it works better.

    Don Winston

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Hidden Valley, AZ
    Posts
    692
    I've been in bands where any rotor-valve euph was discriminated against by others (not me), though they don't play well with comp horns...

    DDG
    1966 Besson 181 highly modified New Standard
    1918 Hawkes & Son euph 3&1 original
    1917 Conn C/D/Eb mellophone original
    1915 York Bb tenorhorn original

  8. #8
    FYI, there's a five-valve (4+1, 5v-flat half step) non-compensating used Mahillon euphonium currently for sale at Baltimore Brass.
    Frank Manola

    Pan American Eb, Meinl Weston 20, Wessex "Solo" EEb, King 2341 tubas
    Besson New Standard, TE 1150 compensating euphs
    Park Street Brass
    Old South UMC Brass & Organ, Reading MA
    Wakefield Retired Men's Club Band
    Windjammers Unlimited

  9. #9
    I apologize to sirendude2015 . I like your idea and your design - well done.

    I did not mean to turn this into a mini-tuba design discussion. I was only trying to help with examples of a five valve euphoniums in production. I found my Besson compensating euphonium in the low C - B natural range needed some finesse to get those notes in tune so I can see the appeal of a fifth valve.
    John Packer JP274L Euphonium
    __________________________
    “Don’t only practice your art, but force your way into its secrets, for it and knowledge can raise men to the divine.”
    ― Ludwig van Beethoven

  10. #10
    I own a Besson Zephyr euphonium built around 1900 that has five valves. This is pre-compensating system. The fifth valve is used as a manual compensation system by using alternate fingering to kick in more tubing when required. It sort of works, but not as well as compensating systems.

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