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Thread: Miraphone 5050 intonation peculiarities

  1. #1

    Miraphone 5050 intonation peculiarities

    So, I've had a 5050 since around September.

    After considerable time with it, I'm finding some intonation peculiarities that I am surprised by, and I'm curious whether anyone else has experienced this.

    All pitches are noted in concert pitch.

    I'm finding the Eb in the staff very flat. While I do know that as a matter of course with compensating instruments, this note tends flat, it seems VERY flat.

    I'm also having difficulty getting the 8th partial Bb, Ab up far enough to be in tune. I'm probably out around 1/4 inch or a little more on the main slide, but these notes seem really flat to me most of the time. (and on a tuner). When checking, I'll center, slide up, slide down, and then re-center just to make sure I'm not playing outside the center of the instrument. I'm still seeing the flatness. Even when I push the horn above where I feel the center is, I'm still finding this difficulty.

    I am playing the Demondrae Thurman mouthpiece, which is admittedly very large, but I've run into the same thing playing an SM3X. I always assume I'm the problem, and damnit, I'm going to practice more! However, I'm having no difficulty with these pitches on my Sterling, or other related instruments. I would assume I just need to find a better fit in a mouthpiece for the horn, but since this is the piece designed in conjunction with the horn, I'll assume it's quite compatible.

    I will say that I play in a british style brass band with the horn, and the band tends sharp, so I'll ignore that issue for the moment (as it is compounded by my difficulty with these pitches).

    Has anyone else had similar experiences on this horn?

    Thanks!
    Mike

  2. My experience with the 5050 is limited, but my most recent time was at TMEA this year, and it does feel like it plays flat on a good chunk of the instrument.
    I assumed that it was a "me" problem, since a) it's a very large horn, bore-wise compared to what I'm used to, and b) I'm used to lipping down on my Besson and probably kept this habit over to other instruments. ymmv

    Don't be afraid to mess with tuning slides a little and experiment with different equipment just to see what's best for you. Sometimes you may end up improving other aspects of your playing as well as the problem you're looking to fix (although it's also possible that other problems will crop up)

  3. #3
    I have two 5050's and I haven't noticed the issues you describe. The Warburton Demondrae MP is a great match, the SM3 has a slightly larger rim, but is much deeper, so if you want to eliminate a too large MP as the cause, I suggest you try something a bit smaller.

    The high register works really well with lots of fast air.

    If you have the first valve pulled to correct sharpness on the 4th partial Ab and 5th partial C, that could be the cause of your flatness on the 3rd partial Eb. Demondrae once suggested to me to push the slide all the way in, and I've been playing that way ever since. I use full trigger for the 4th space G, and I tickle the trigger for some other slightly sharp notes.

    I do do find the horn to be slightly flat natured, and most ensembles I play in tend to move sharp during performances, so I tune so that low Bb is dead-nuts in tune. This makes middle Bb slightly sharp (the octaves are a little stretched in my experience), so I either use a tiny tickle of trigger, or just lip as the horn is so flexible.

    Demondrae plays with all slides fully in. My 3rd is pulled about 3/4", as is my 4th. My main depends on the temperature of the room, but very rarely is it ever out past the point where the adjustment rod turns from silver to gold. 2nd and 1st are always pushed all the way.


    Don Winston

  4. #4
    Don,

    Thanks very much for all the detail on your setup.

    I too play with all 3 valve slides in, but I'm going to try tuning to the 2nd partial Bb tomorrow rather than 4th and see if that makes a difference.

    It's funny, the SM3x feels smaller on my face than the DT, but I've got several pieces I'll try another round with.

    Mike

    Quote Originally Posted by djwpe View Post
    I have two 5050's and I haven't noticed the issues you describe. The Warburton Demondrae MP is a great match, the SM3 has a slightly larger rim, but is much deeper, so if you want to eliminate a too large MP as the cause, I suggest you try something a bit smaller.

    The high register works really well with lots of fast air.

    If you have the first valve pulled to correct sharpness on the 4th partial Ab and 5th partial C, that could be the cause of your flatness on the 3rd partial Eb. Demondrae once suggested to me to push the slide all the way in, and I've been playing that way ever since. I use full trigger for the 4th space G, and I tickle the trigger for some other slightly sharp notes.

    I do do find the horn to be slightly flat natured, and most ensembles I play in tend to move sharp during performances, so I tune so that low Bb is dead-nuts in tune. This makes middle Bb slightly sharp (the octaves are a little stretched in my experience), so I either use a tiny tickle of trigger, or just lip as the horn is so flexible.

    Demondrae plays with all slides fully in. My 3rd is pulled about 3/4", as is my 4th. My main depends on the temperature of the room, but very rarely is it ever out past the point where the adjustment rod turns from silver to gold. 2nd and 1st are always pushed all the way.


    Don Winston

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Summerfield, Florida Sturgis, SD (summers)
    Posts
    1,867
    I had a 5050 for a couple years and it was a great horn. I used the Demondrae mouthpiece and came to love it. So many people say that mouthpiece is huge. Actually if you compare it with an SM4 and SM3, it is closer to the SM4 in rim diameter. The outer mass of the mouthpiece is massive and heavy. It was for me, a great mouthpiece for the Miraphone. I did not have pitch problems. Regarding the slides, I kept 1 and 2 all in and 3 out a little. 4th was out a little and the main was out a little. I played the staff G with 3rd valve when the note was sustained for any length of time. 1&2 for the G when going fast. I use the Warburton Demondrae on my Wessex and my new Adams E3. I love that mouthpiece. I had a trigger on my 5050, but seldom used it. I just didn't experience pitch problems, and the high concert B natural played and sounded good.
    John Morgan
    The U.S. Army Band (Pershing's Own) 1971-1976
    Adams E3 Custom Series Euphonium, 1956 B&H Imperial Euphonium,
    1973 F. E. Olds & Son Studio Model T-31 Baritone
    Adams TB1 Tenor Trombone, Yamaha YBL-822G Bass Trombone
    Year Round Except Summer:
    Kingdom of the Sun (KOS) Concert Band, Ocala, FL (Euphonium)
    KOS Brass Quintet (Trombone, Euphonium)
    Summer Only:
    Rapid City Municipal Band, Rapid City, SD (Euphonium)
    Rapid City New Horizons Band (Euphonium)

  6. #6
    Mike-

    i think the reason the SM's feel smaller is the very sharp bite on the inner rim. I agree with John that it's between a 3 and 4 size.

    Also, regarding the 4th space G, in order to play that in tune 1-2, I removed the stop rod from the main slide. So full trigger is quite a bit more than with the stop rod in place.


    Don

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    West Palm Beach, FL
    Posts
    3,853
    I'm glad to see Don and John already post on this. I saw this last night just before retiring, but didn't have time to post then.

    I've had my M5050 now for 4 years. When I first got the horn (one without trigger) I was a bit frustrated with some of the pitches. It took me at least 6 mos. to get used to some pitch peculiarities and practicing with my tuner. Part of that was the fact that my previous horn (Yamaha 641) slotted so well... a bit too well actually. The M5050 requires the player to really pay attention to buzzing on pitch center. After awhile it becomes second nature. The horn tends to be on the flat side... especially when cold. This past Easter Sunday when playing on stage with the band and having to put the horn down for the pastor's 30 minute sermon, I knew I had to push the slide almost all the way in to play in tune for the closing hymn.

    When my horn is warmed up, the main slide is out about 1/2 to 3/4". My 1st slide is only out about 1/8" (Eb on staff a bit flat, 6th partial Eb a bit sharp) but easily lipped. My 3rd slide is out about 1/4", 4th slide out 1/2". As Don said, the worst note is the top space concert 'G'. I use 3rd valve for that note and it's fine. The low Bb (2nd partial) is pretty flat and I have to lip it up quite a bit. The high Ab and Bb (8th partial) are fine for me. You might consider pushing in your main slide a bit more or tune sharper if that makes sense.
    Last edited by RickF; 04-22-2017 at 09:16 AM.
    Rick Floyd
    Miraphone 5050 - Warburton BJ / RF mpc
    YEP-641S (recently sold)
    Doug Elliott - 102 rim; I-cup; I-9 shank


    "Always play with a good tone, never louder than lovely, never softer than supported." - author unknown.
    Symphonic Band of the Palm Beaches
    El Cumbanchero (Raphael Hernandez, arr. Naohiro Iwai)
    Chorale and Shaker Dance
    (John Zdechlik)

  8. #8
    Thanks everyone for all of your input.

    Definitely the horn/MP combo I'm using require the player to not be lazy.

    I'll try some of these suggestions and do another round of evaluations.

    I'm playing with a band that tends pretty high, and I'm having a rough time with it.

    Thanks again,
    Mike





    Quote Originally Posted by RickF View Post
    I'm glad to see Don and John already post on this. I saw this last night just before retiring, but didn't have time to post then.

    I've had my M5050 now for 4 years. When I first got the horn (one without trigger) I was a bit frustrated with some of the pitches. It took me at least 6 mos. to get used to some pitch peculiarities and practicing with my tuner. Part of that was the fact that my previous horn (Yamaha 641) slotted so well... a bit too well actually. The M5050 requires the player to really pay attention to buzzing on pitch center. After awhile it becomes second nature. The horn tends to be on the flat side... especially when cold. This past Easter Sunday when playing on stage with the band and having to put the horn down for the pastor's 30 minute sermon, I knew I had to push the slide almost all the way in to play in tune for the closing hymn.

    When my horn is warmed up, the main slide is out about 1/2 to 3/4". My 1st slide is only out about 1/8" (Eb on staff a bit flat, 6th partial Eb a bit sharp) but easily lipped. My 3rd slide is out about 1/4", 4th slide out 1/2". As Don said, the worst note is the top space concert 'G'. I use 3rd valve for that note and it's fine. The low Bb (2nd partial) is pretty flat and I have to lip it up quite a bit. The high Ab and Bb (8th partial) are fine for me. You might consider pushing in your main slide a bit more or tune sharper if that makes sense.
    Last edited by miketeachesclass; 04-22-2017 at 10:45 PM.

  9. #9
    The 5050 is definitely quite flexible, and I find myself able to play in tune with anyone playing in my ear. Even if it's a high band in a very cold room.

    Don

  10. #10
    I did some playing tonight on the SM3X as well as the Gail Robertson warburton and was having no difficulty getting things where they needed to be.

    When I put the DT back in, the problem re-appeared.

    Obviously, there's more to be done, as mouthpiece adjustment takes time, but tentatively, it looks like the DT is probably not the piece for me on the horn.

    Thanks again everyone for the input!

    Mike

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