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Thread: Persevere with wick 4AL?

  1. Persevere with wick 4AL?

    Hi All,

    I’ve been trying to make the switch to a wick 4AL several times now. Because I really like the sound it produces. Problem is that my sound gets harsh when I play high C or higher (Bb treble clef reader). This is something I don’t get on a 3AL sized piece (3AL, DC2, SM3). Should I accept that I’m a player that needs to use a 3 sized mouthpiece? Or should I persevere and stick to the 4AL and keep practicing long tones?
    Pro’s for me using the 4AL:
    - Love the sound
    - Lipbindings are easier
    - Endurance is better

    Cons using the 4AL:
    - I need to back off when playing in the low/middle register (I’m used to playing with a lot of air)
    - The tone gets a bit harsh when playing high C and upwards
    - I need to back off when playing FF

    The 4AL feels right sized on my face as well. If I’d choose to switch to the 4AL I feel that I’m taking a step backwards after a few days/weeks and then I get back to one of my 3 sized pieces again. It could very well be that a 3 sized piece is just more forgiving of my flaws as I player and that 4AL shows those flaws to me.

    Could use some advice……

    Thanks.
    Euphonium: Adams E3 Custom Series (SS Bell)
    Trombone: Benge 175F


  2. #2
    There are plenty of more knowledgeable people than I am that will weigh in I'm sure, but if you love your sound with the 4AL and you like the endurance and you like the way it feels on your face, it sounds like it may be worth staying with the 4AL and figuring the rest out with time.

    For what its worth, when I was going back and forth between a 3AL and 4AL I ended up sticking with the 3AL. The 4AL felt small on my face. For me, I like the sound and feel of the 3AL in the low and middle range. I rarely play above high concert Bb, so unfortunately I can't offer you a tone comparison between the two based on my experience in that range. As you mention, to play the 4AL you kind of have to back off in the low/middle range, which I could never really get used to. Of course if I had given it a year instead of a week, who knows. Good luck with your choice!

  3. #3
    Your face might fit the 3-sized rim, and I think it's counterproductive to fight that. Perhaps you could have a 4AL threaded and get a 3AL rim to put on it? Best of both worlds.
    --
    Barry

  4. You listed the pros and cons of the 4AL, but you kind of beat around the bush when describing your playing with the 3-sized mouthpieces. Can you articulate and post a pros/cons list with each of those mouthpieces? That may help your quest to narrow down to which mouthpiece to use.

    Also, enlist the aid of a knowledgeable player that can help you with feedback about what the horn sounds like out front. Being under the bell, it is difficult to determine exactly what the "real" tone is out front, and which is also exacerbated by the fact that all brass players also "hear" direct mandibular vibrations that affect how we hear the horn generally.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Summerfield, Florida Sturgis, SD (summers)
    Posts
    1,870
    I own a 4AL, but the mouthpiece that I use pretty exclusively is a Warburton Demondrae Thurman Signature mouthpiece. The specs:

    The 4AL has an inside diameter of 26.00 mm, the Demondrae has an inside diameter of 26.162 mm.
    The 4AL has a throat of 7.38 mm, the Demondrae has a throat of 7.366 mm.

    Both have a deep cup, and the rim width of the Demondrae is a little wider than the 4AL.

    The interesting thing about this comparison is that size wise, these two seem pretty close. But playing wise, they don't. The 4AL has much less mass in how the mouthpiece is cut. The outside shape tapers down quite a bit from the rim to the shank. On the other hand, the Warburton has a much larger amount of mass on the outside. The Warburton feels bigger on my face, perhaps due to the wider rim. Actually, it is not so much that the Warburton feels bigger, it is that the 4AL feels smaller. It is hard to believe that ".162 mm" inside diameter difference and slightly wider rim can make a big difference, but it does for me. When I sit here and play a few notes on one then the other, the difference is obvious. They play "way" differently. The 4AL is somewhat "thin" and lacking in fullness to me. It is not nearly this radical, but it seems like I am playing on a trumpet (like I said, not nearly that radical, but the sense is of a much smaller mouthpiece). Low notes are not full and round with the 4AL. With the Demondrae, low notes are glorious. It takes a little more work to play high and to play very high, but those notes sound better with the Warburton. I would say the middle range, nothing too high or too low, sound nice with the 4AL, but the extremes do not sound as good. Now, mind you, the 4AL doesn't sound bad at all, it just doesn't sound equally as good to me as the Warburton does.

    So, when DutchEupho says the sound gets "harsh" when up high with the 4AL, I know what he means. I would also say that the low and very low register is thinner with the 4AL than with a bigger piece. At least for DutchEupho and me. If you are experiencing these things, I would stay with the 3AL. Or explore other possibilities. I sure like the Warburton Demondrae piece.

    This comparison and how the mouthpieces feel and play is the way it works for me and is clearly a very personal thing, as I know others play on the 4AL with excellent results, Dave Werden comes to mind. I have a somewhat larger lower lip, which could influence what works for me. I got used to the Demondrae mouthpiece when I owned my Miraphone M5050. It worked really well for that horn. I tried it with my Wessex when I sold the Miraphone and was waiting for my new Adams. It worked great for the Wessex. Then when my Adams arrived, I tried a bunch of mouthpieces, and settled on the Warburton again. It just really works well for me.
    Last edited by John Morgan; 04-03-2017 at 12:26 PM.
    John Morgan
    The U.S. Army Band (Pershing's Own) 1971-1976
    Adams E3 Custom Series Euphonium, 1956 B&H Imperial Euphonium,
    1973 F. E. Olds & Son Studio Model T-31 Baritone
    Adams TB1 Tenor Trombone, Yamaha YBL-822G Bass Trombone
    Year Round Except Summer:
    Kingdom of the Sun (KOS) Concert Band, Ocala, FL (Euphonium)
    KOS Brass Quintet (Trombone, Euphonium)
    Summer Only:
    Rapid City Municipal Band, Rapid City, SD (Euphonium)
    Rapid City New Horizons Band (Euphonium)

  6. Enjoy Bastien Baumet playing on a 4al
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIDVqtnnsvA

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by graeme View Post
    Enjoy Bastien Baumet playing on a 4al
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIDVqtnnsvA
    Terrific! Thanks for sharing

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Indianapolis area
    Posts
    1,003
    You might consider the SM 3.5: It has the width of a 3-size mouthpiece with the cup depth of a 4-size. I use one and find it to be an excellent mix of the best of the 3 and the 4.

    Waag eens een poging!!

  9. On my (never ending?) search for the perfect mouthpiece I’ve had Josef Klier make me a custom model. Effectively a wick 4AL with the rim of the Warburton BT16 (Demondrae). Why this combo?
    I’ve never played anything as comfortable as the Warburton BT16. That rim feels really good on my face. The sound of the BT16 is alluring as well, lovely high register. Only drawback for me was the projection with this mouthpiece. I need to project over a FF playing Brass Band when needed. I guess that projecting is a bit more difficult due to the more C (or U) shaped cup of the BT16 (in comparison to the wick). The Wick allows for more air because of the more V shaped cup and thus aides in projection.
    The craftsmen at Josef Klier made me a mouthpiece on the JK Exclusive blank with the Cup of the Wick 4AL and the rim of the Warburton BT16 and it is exactly as I expected: the projection and tonal capabilities of the Wick and the comfort (endurance ) of the BT16. Turns out the problem I’ve had with the wick has more to do with the feel of the inner rim then the size of it. The BT16 is still in my case as it is less tiring to play then the new 4AL/BT16. So I use this as my backup for when my chops are not in optimal shape.

    So… If you ever want to try and create some kind of hybrid mouthpiece, consider Josef Klier as they provided good service for a reasonable price…..
    Last edited by DutchEupho; 01-09-2018 at 08:47 AM.
    Euphonium: Adams E3 Custom Series (SS Bell)
    Trombone: Benge 175F


  10. #10
    Warburton will also do that sort of work. I got a trombone Mpc (a 7ST) with the Demondrae rim.



    Quote Originally Posted by DutchEupho View Post
    On my (never ending?) search for the perfect mouthpiece I’ve had Josef Klier make me a custom model. Effectively a wick 4AL with the rim of the Warburton BT16 (Demondrae). Why this combo?
    I’ve never played anything as comfortable as the Warburton BT16. That rim feels really good on my face. The sound of the BT16 is alluring as well, lovely high register. Only drawback for me was the projection with this mouthpiece. I need to project over a FF playing Brass Band when needed. I guess that projecting is a bit more difficult due to the more C (or U) shaped cup of the BT16 (in comparison to the wick). The Wick allows for more air because of the more V shaped cup and thus aides in projection.
    The craftsmen at Josef Klier made me a mouthpiece on the JK Exclusive blank with the Cup of the Wick 4AL and the rim of the Warburton BT16 and it is exactly as I expected: the projection and tonal capabilities of the Wick and the comfort (endurance ) of the BT16. Turns out the problem I’ve had with the wick has more to do with the feel of the inner rim then the size of it. The BT16 is still in my case as it is less tiring to play then the new 4AL/BT16. So I use this as my backup for when my chops are not in optimal shape.

    So… If you ever want to try and create some kind of hybrid mouthpiece, consider Josef Klier as they provided good service for a reasonable price…..

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