Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 36

Thread: Algirdas Matonis, "The Truth About Cheap Brass Instruments"

  1. #1

    Algirdas Matonis, "The Truth About Cheap Brass Instruments"

    Following up to his recent favorable review of the Wessex Dolce, which got him some negative comments on YouTube, Algirdas Matonis has posted a video with the above title. The video consists of about five minutes of talk, in which he reiterates his position that the instruments now coming out of China are now of such high quality that they are good enough for most student and amateur players. The remaining 20 minutes are a condensation of a rehearsal that he conducted with a pianist, playing a clone (which he would not identify) that was sent to him by an American vender. It's almost a dare to find anything in the sound that identifies the horn as a clone, and not a high-end instrument.

    Whether you're a clone fan or not, the video is worth watching, just for the quality of the playing.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQarMlwqu4g

    (Well, I'll be danged; I was actually allowed to copy and paste a link! That's a first!)
    David Bjornstad

    1923 Conn New Wonder 86I, Bach 6 1/2 AL
    2018 Wessex EP100 Dolce, Denis Wick 4ABL
    2013 Jinbao JBEP-1111L, Denis Wick 4AM
    2015 Jinbao JBBR-1240, Denis Wick clone mouthpiece of unknown designation
    Cullman (AL) Community Band (Euph Section Leader)
    Brass Band of Huntsville (2nd Bari)

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Summerfield, Florida Sturgis, SD (summers)
    Posts
    1,870
    I think it was a JP euphonium. I have a Wessex, and it is at least 80-85% as good as the very high end horns, IMHO. I own both, a Wessex and an Adams E3.
    John Morgan
    The U.S. Army Band (Pershing's Own) 1971-1976
    Adams E3 Custom Series Euphonium, 1956 B&H Imperial Euphonium,
    1973 F. E. Olds & Son Studio Model T-31 Baritone
    Adams TB1 Tenor Trombone, Yamaha YBL-822G Bass Trombone
    Year Round Except Summer:
    Kingdom of the Sun (KOS) Concert Band, Ocala, FL (Euphonium)
    KOS Brass Quintet (Trombone, Euphonium)
    Summer Only:
    Rapid City Municipal Band, Rapid City, SD (Euphonium)
    Rapid City New Horizons Band (Euphonium)

  3. Quote Originally Posted by John Morgan View Post
    I think it was a JP euphonium. I have a Wessex, and it is at least 80-85% as good as the very high end horns, IMHO. I own both, a Wessex and an Adams E3.
    That seems to be pretty much how he sees it. The main point being that for perhaps a 15-20% increase in quality there is a disproportionate increase in price over the Chinese clones?
    Frankly if you lay out the coin on a new German Besson for example you should expect it to be not only a lot better than a Wessex, but also not require mead springs or lefreque plates to get it to work properly.

  4. #4
    I can buy the concept that the Chinese horns offer 80% of the results of a pro horn for 20% of the price. Buying that requires that I agree with the measuring stick used, of course. I think he is talking about valve action, tone quality, response, intonation, etc., and his video does demonstrate the results HE can get from a clone horn. That is worth something, for sure. It could prove to a college student who does not intend to have a very intense playing experience after college that a horn like this could be just fine.

    It does not demonstrate the difference between Algirdas playing a clone and him playing a pro horn. That would be a better demonstration, but it is still not the whole story.

    For one thing, an A/B test like that on a YouTube recording could make it hard to assess projection. I did my own accidental A/B test between a Besson 967 and 968 when I was a Besson artist. I had the 968 on loan to try out for a while. It was somewhat easier to play in my practice room testing. But while rehearsing a solo with the full band, I played once with my 967 and then a second time with the 968 (during the same rehearsal). Our first trombonist was in the audience are of the concert hall where we were playing. He did not know I was testing horns that morning. He commented to me that the band was too loud on the 2nd run-though - he had trouble hearing me. I don't think the band had changed how they played; it was just that the 967 had better projection. I'm not sure that would have been as clear with a piano A/B test.

    Such an A/B test does not tell the listener about intonation. As you know I think the Adams has the best intonation of all the pro horns I've tested. But my own recordings only show you the results *I* get out of it. I've mentioned in this forum that I am fighting a tendency to play based on 40 years of Besson/Sterling habits and also my ear's desire to be sharp (and therefore more "brilliant" or more easily heard).

    My last point to counter the 80/20 rule as some kind of logical proof is that ease of playing. I've tested the same horn Algirdas uses back to back with the Adams (at the same event where I first played the Adams), and the Adams was easier to play. I noted that but did not fully appreciate the significance until more recently. Because of that, and its evenness from note to note and its good intonation, I am able to play more accurately than I have played in the past.

    So if the Adams plays better in tune, if its tone is slightly better (which in fairness is really all I can claim), and it makes me sound like a better player (subjective analysis), that is worth quite a lot!

    Have you ever seen a man in a really expensive suit? I thought of that watching a James Bond movie recently. Now, Bond had a good build to be sure. But I don't believe one of the suits that *I* wear, but in his size, would have looked the same on him. It would have looked maybe 80% as good. For an actor or character in a movie that is an important distinction. For me, I'm OK with the suits I own.
    Last edited by davewerden; 03-11-2017 at 03:43 PM.
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    Alliance Mouthpiece (DC3)
    YouTube: dwerden
    Facebook: davewerden
    Twitter: davewerden
    Instagram: davewerdeneuphonium

  5. #5
    I left out a summary that should have been included. Just as with suits, the value of a horn is not "fixed."

    In my many years of talking to players, I've noticed that the dollars spent on a horn are often way out of proportion to the amount of monetary earnings one gets back. AND they are often way out of proportion with the player's abilities to get the full results out of the horn.

    But for those players I'm talking about, it became clear to me that the value to THEM was justified. In some cases they had enough funds to make it possible.

    On the other hand, I've met many players whose abilities are far beyond the money they spent (or could afford) on their horns.

    In my own case I have said a few times here that if I had no euphonium and could only afford $1500, I would be fine with a Wessex. Sure, it's not as good as the Adams I have, but I've already come to grips with the fact that I will never be able to afford to buy or own a Bentley automobile, so I could make the same attitude adjustment with a Wessex. It would enable me to keep playing - that's a pretty good value! And I think I have the ability to get to 90% or better results compared to my Adams (albeit with extra work on my part).
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    Alliance Mouthpiece (DC3)
    YouTube: dwerden
    Facebook: davewerden
    Twitter: davewerden
    Instagram: davewerdeneuphonium

  6. All excellent points Mr Werden, and the suit analogy is a good one. The progress made by some of the Chinese clone instruments should serve as a warning to the top end European manufacturers though. Reading the Wessex thread on here its clear that the improvements are ongoing and there is no reason to believe that 20% gap in quality may not close further while pitching around the same price point in future. Its clear from people on here that own a Wessex and an Adams , stirling or besson, that the Wessex is very much their second or spare instrument. My hope is that the prospect of cheap competition from China will be beneficial to us all by encouraging the traditional manufacturers of 'pro' level horns to ensure their quality and consistency gives value for the extra money they charge. Perhaps even ensuring they use decent brass in the first place?
    The nightmare scenario is that if becomes all about the price quality everywhere will lower.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Summerfield, Florida Sturgis, SD (summers)
    Posts
    1,870
    So Dave, I am not sure I understand your comments. Are you arguing against the 80/20 rule or for it? I believe that "some" of these inexpensive horns are in fact 80% or more as good as the top end horns for 20% or less of the price. I have played my Wessex in several different environments (small rooms, big rooms, concert halls, churches, etc.). Not even comparing it against anything else, it performed and sounded very well, to be more precise, it and I performed and sounded very well.

    But for me, as a professional level player of more than 50 years, I want the very, very best horn out there, regardless of price (in reality, I couldn't easily afford $50K, but I did pay over $10K for my current horn). So I will opt to pay the extra dollars in order to have the very best. Music is a very important part of my life, so I consider it money well spent. My horn does not sit around or hang on a wall to admire. It gets the begeebers played out of it, probably 15 hours a week on average. And I do notice a difference between my Adams and my Wessex. But I also suspect that many who play euphonium would be perfectly happy with a Wessex, and many people who come to concert band concerts would not know the difference at all if I played a solo on my Adams or my Wessex.
    John Morgan
    The U.S. Army Band (Pershing's Own) 1971-1976
    Adams E3 Custom Series Euphonium, 1956 B&H Imperial Euphonium,
    1973 F. E. Olds & Son Studio Model T-31 Baritone
    Adams TB1 Tenor Trombone, Yamaha YBL-822G Bass Trombone
    Year Round Except Summer:
    Kingdom of the Sun (KOS) Concert Band, Ocala, FL (Euphonium)
    KOS Brass Quintet (Trombone, Euphonium)
    Summer Only:
    Rapid City Municipal Band, Rapid City, SD (Euphonium)
    Rapid City New Horizons Band (Euphonium)

  8. #8
    John, I'm arguing against the mis-use of the 80/20 rule, but as I stated in my first paragraph of the first post, if we agree on what we're measuring I'm for it.

    I think, to some extent, I disagree with the way Algirdas seems to toss off the need for a more expensive horn for most players. "Need" is a funny word. I might say I "need" an Adams when I really mean I "want" an Adams. I could survive on a Wessex (et al) and I can't cost-justify the Adams. But I DO think the extra cost is worth it for what it gives me that the Wessex does not, which I think is similar to your perspective.

    If I want a good pen, the 80/20 rule is fine for me. Same for my car (as stated earlier) and much of my other property. I have an 80/20 camera compared to some of my photo-bug friends; I would probably appreciate some of the features of the top cameras, but I don't have nearly enough interest to buy one.

    Having said all that, music is a "fine art," not a science and not fully subject to tools like Internet price-shopping engines. Similarly, pleasure is not a logical, numbers-based concept. The Adams gives me a great deal of pleasure above and beyond a Wessex. It gives my pleasure over and above my former Sterling. Playing is a mechanical operation in many ways, and the Adams assists me there. But music is also from the heart, and feeling better and more confident about the horn I'm playing probably contributes to a better performance in very subtle ways.
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    Alliance Mouthpiece (DC3)
    YouTube: dwerden
    Facebook: davewerden
    Twitter: davewerden
    Instagram: davewerdeneuphonium

  9. Quote Originally Posted by davewerden View Post
    John, I'm arguing against the mis-use of the 80/20 rule, but as I stated in my first paragraph of the first post, if we agree on what we're measuring I'm for it.

    I think, to some extent, I disagree with the way Algirdas seems to toss off the need for a more expensive horn for most players. "Need" is a funny word. I might say I "need" an Adams when I really mean I "want" an Adams. I could survive on a Wessex (et al) and I can't cost-justify the Adams. But I DO think the extra cost is worth it for what it gives me that the Wessex does not, which I think is similar to your perspective.

    If I want a good pen, the 80/20 rule is fine for me. Same for my car (as stated earlier) and much of my other property. I have an 80/20 camera compared to some of my photo-bug friends; I would probably appreciate some of the features of the top cameras, but I don't have nearly enough interest to buy one.

    Having said all that, music is a "fine art," not a science and not fully subject to tools like Internet price-shopping engines. Similarly, pleasure is not a logical, numbers-based concept. The Adams gives me a great deal of pleasure above and beyond a Wessex. It gives my pleasure over and above my former Sterling. Playing is a mechanical operation in many ways, and the Adams assists me there. But music is also from the heart, and feeling better and more confident about the horn I'm playing probably contributes to a better performance in very subtle ways.
    I suppose it's a bit like rolex vs casio - they both tell the time.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by booboo View Post
    I suppose it's a bit like rolex vs casio - they both tell the time.
    How did you know???

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Casio Watch.JPG 
Views:	7 
Size:	216.3 KB 
ID:	4969
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    Alliance Mouthpiece (DC3)
    YouTube: dwerden
    Facebook: davewerden
    Twitter: davewerden
    Instagram: davewerdeneuphonium

Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •