"Old" Wick 4AL vs. "New" Wick 4AL

[daruby]

Hi all,

I have used a Denis Wick 4AL for at least 35 years as my "every day" mouthpiece. My first Wick 4AL (which I still have) came with my 1980 "Boosey & Hawkes" Sovereign (Round Stamp). Of late, I have been playing one or the other of two that I purchased within the last 6 years. The 37 year old 4AL is a very different mouthpiece than the modern version of the same. I was asked by another forum member what the differences are between the two and so I took some pictures.

Side by Side: Not a lot of difference in this view. As far as the labeling, the new one says DENIS WICK.LONDON while the older says DENIS WICK^.LONDON (notice the period in a different location). The "4AL" is a smaller character size on the older mouthpiece.



Rim Size:

These are both 26mm rims and feel pretty close to the same size, but notice the rim depth difference. The new 4AL has a much deeper lip around the rim.



Cup Depth

I tried the old "quarter in the cup" test and find a significant difference. I believe that the two mouthpieces have the same cup shape relative to the throat of the mouthpiece, but the thicker lip on the new mouthpiece extends the effective cup depth. As you can see, the quarter sticks up more out of the cup on the old mouthpiece.



Feel

The shallower effective depth on the old mouthpiece and a slightly sharper edge to the rim of the mouthpiece makes it feel a little more brittle and somewhat less "pillowy" in sound. Articulation is a bit easier, though and slotting might be just a bit better. Also, while I rarely notice any fuzz when playing any Wick mouthpiece, the old mouthpiece definitely has no trace. The new mouthpiece feels softer and the sound is a bit more to my preference. I have to work just a bit harder with it, but it doesn't cut into the lips as much when I get tired and use too much pressure.

That's it,

Doug

[booboo]

Thanks for the comparison Doug, I'd always taken it for granted that the design had not changed. I wonder if similar differences exist across the wick al range, and if this was a deliberate design change to add mass/depth or just one of manufacturer/tooling?
I have heard that in the past wick MP's were inconsistent due to wear on the tooling used, but it imagine in these days of computerised lathes this will not be the case. It would be interesting to ask Mr Wick or his company about all this, but I suppose a desire to protect the brand/company reputation may get in the way of a straightforward answer.

[ydave]

Yes very inconsistent..... I used to use a 4AL, a 4AM and a 4AY for different instruments until Morgan Griffiths did the, in my case, 2 pence piece test.....all different and I'd owned them all from a similar period! That's what put me on to Doug Elliott so I could have the same rim on all MP combinations. With modern CNC lathes I'm guessing that the modern Wick versions are consistent to each other now.

[John Morgan]

Very interesting on the quarter test with the two 4ALs from many years apart (that they are so different). Made me go and see how a quarter looked in the few mouthpieces I use. I came away from that experiment knowing how far the quarter stuck out above the rim in each, but not much more. But my wife was impressed.

[booboo]

I'm probably not going to do this test in case it gives me an excuse for more expensive mouthpiece shopping!
Just to throw another variable in, I have 4 4al's and one seems to not insert as deeply into the receiver as the others in the same instrument. This may be a plating rather than mp difference though as it only takes a small difference to effect this.

[jakewillis]

I could not wait to get home today to check out the pictures on a larger monitor! Very interesting, thanks!

[highpitch]

This begs a couple questions/;

Aren't DW MP's marketed as trombone first, with obvious euph applications?

Where does the Mead series fit in? Especially the Ultra series...

There are a bewildering number of good MP's for euph, and if that is not just crazy try vectoring in your chops.

The silly things seem more like underwear--you find what works and go with it..but what if there were something better?....

d

[booboo]

The silly things seem more like underwear--you find what works and go with it..but what if there were something better?....

d

Haha - chasing that question is the road to financial ruin and a big bag of mouthpieces!

[ydave]

Maybe just one more MP? It will be the last one......

[daruby]

This begs a couple questions/;

• Aren't DW MP's marketed as trombone first, with obvious euph applications?
• Where does the Mead series fit in? Especially the Ultra series...

1. DW originally started out on trombone mouthpieces (and mutes) in the late 1960's since he is a trombone player (as is DE). But by the time the Sovereign came out in 1974, the 4AL became standard issue replacing the truly awful Besson 10 that came stock on earlier medium shank horns. The 3AL/4AL (emphasis on the A cup depth) have always tended toward being euph mouthpieces. They tend to be "tubby" on trombone. I'd think someone wanting a 26mm or 26.4mm rim size on trombone would go for a B sized cup, 3BL or 4BL.
2. The Ultra series (i.e SM4U or SM4X) generally have thinner, sharper rim lips than the 4AL and are perhaps a bit deeper. They are definitely "euph" oriented mouthpieces.

[Edwin]

Yep. My old 3AL is completely different than the new classic denis Wick 3 AL. Rim seems really bigger.
Flexibiliy and high range is different. It has turned more in a bass trombone mouthpiece it seems. Hope i can find someplace or somebody
to sell an oldie as spare. Have over 65 euph mouthpieces all derived from the Mother mouthpiece it seems, but been playing on my old3AL again. Back to the start.

[bbocaner]

Old 4ALs are pretty inconsistent amongst themselves. I remember when I bought one in the early 1990s, I tried a few in the music store and they were wildly different from each other. I remember Doug Elliott's old printed brochures used to have a rim comparison chart in it. Under the 102 column it said 4AL. Under the 103 column it said 4AL. Under the 104 column it said "believe it or not, some 4ALs are this big."

These days it's all CNC I'm sure.

[bbocaner]

1. DW originally started out on trombone mouthpieces (and mutes) in the late 1960's since he is a trombone player (as is DE). But by the time the Sovereign came out in 1974, the 4AL became standard issue replacing the truly awful Besson 10 that came stock on earlier medium shank horns. The 3AL/4AL (emphasis on the A cup depth) have always tended toward being euph mouthpieces. They tend to be "tubby" on trombone. I'd think someone wanting a 26mm or 26.4mm rim size on trombone would go for a B sized cup, 3BL or 4BL.

Mr. Wick apparently designed the 4AL as his own personal trombone mouthpiece. I played the 4AL for many years on trombone myself even though it has never worked well for me on euphonium. I find the 4AL to be a very good trombone mouthpiece, even though I feel like the 51D is too tubby on trombone. 4BL is way too bright for orchestral trombone. We all respond to different equipment in different ways, though!

[highpitch]

I regularly play on either an SM-4 or 3, depending on the chart.

I tried an SM-4U, but it actually wore my chops to bleed after an hour...

Still looking for my personal holy grail!

>>Maybe the new one from Mr. Ruby will be it<<

d

[John Morgan]

I would venture to say that life is a journey, and playing euphonium is part of the (my) journey. As we mature and then as we age, we change. I would imagine it is not unusual to change mouthpieces along the way. I know I have. What I played when young (a long time ago) was different from what I played in the U.S. Army Band, and what I play today is different from what I played 10 years ago. And if you play a lot (as I do), your mouthpiece choice may be different from those who don't. I use the Demondrae signature mouthpiece (that came with the Miraphone M5050), although I do have a 4AL and others floating around somewhere. I absolutely love the sound I get with my current mouthpiece, and do not think I will change, but who knows. I do have to keep my playing up, spend the time that is, to maintain the sound I like with this mouthpiece. The 4AL, the subject of this thread, is a nice mouthpiece, but for me, it is a tiny bit on the "small" side for my liking. But it works great for others.