"Old" Wick 4AL vs. "New" Wick 4AL

[graeme]

Hi all,

I have used a Denis Wick 4AL for at least 35 years as my "every day" mouthpiece. My first Wick 4AL (which I still have) came with my 1980 "Boosey & Hawkes" Sovereign (Round Stamp). Of late, I have been playing one or the other of two that I purchased within the last 6 years. The 37 year old 4AL is a very different mouthpiece than the modern version of the same. I was asked by another forum member what the differences are between the two and so I took some pictures.

Side by Side: Not a lot of difference in this view. As far as the labeling, the new one says DENIS WICK.LONDON while the older says DENIS WICK^.LONDON (notice the period in a different location). The "4AL" is a smaller character size on the older mouthpiece.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4943[/ATTACH]

Rim Size:

These are both 26mm rims and feel pretty close to the same size, but notice the rim depth difference. The new 4AL has a much deeper lip around the rim.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4944[/ATTACH]

Cup Depth

I tried the old "quarter in the cup" test and find a significant difference. I believe that the two mouthpieces have the same cup shape relative to the throat of the mouthpiece, but the thicker lip on the new mouthpiece extends the effective cup depth. As you can see, the quarter sticks up more out of the cup on the old mouthpiece.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4945[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]4946[/ATTACH]

Feel

The shallower effective depth on the old mouthpiece and a slightly sharper edge to the rim of the mouthpiece makes it feel a little more brittle and somewhat less "pillowy" in sound. Articulation is a bit easier, though and slotting might be just a bit better. Also, while I rarely notice any fuzz when playing any Wick mouthpiece, the old mouthpiece definitely has no trace. The new mouthpiece feels softer and the sound is a bit more to my preference. I have to work just a bit harder with it, but it doesn't cut into the lips as much when I get tired and use too much pressure.

That's it,

Doug

So now we have the quarter in the cup test for depth, has anyone devised a test for comparing inner rim sharpness ?

[Charju]

"Articulation is a bit easier, though and slotting might be just a bit better."

Just wondering, what is "slotting"?
Thanks

[highpitch]

Playing a note very close to proper pitch, first time, every time.

Some horns do it well, others have a couple notes that need 'work' to play true.

DDG

[davewerden]

SLOTTING: open you horn's main water key and play a few notes. That's what bad slotting feels like!

[highpitch]

Ha!

DG

[davewerden]

So now we have the quarter in the cup test for depth, has anyone devised a test for comparing inner rim sharpness ?

The quarter test on euphonium mouthpieces is really a test of cup width, not depth so much. With our common sizes, the quarter hits the side long before it would hit the bottom.

As far as inner rim sharpness, there are a lot of factors that affect how the rim feels, and the apparent sharpness of a particular rim may be caused by other things. Check out this page:

http://www.grmouthpieces.com/rim.html

In his lexicon you are talking about the "bite" of the mouthpiece.

[davewerden]

Here is a full view of a mouthpiece with some terms defined:

[graeme]

The quarter test on euphonium mouthpieces is really a test of cup width, not depth so much. With our common sizes, the quarter hits the side long before it would hit the bottom.

As far as inner rim sharpness, there are a lot of factors that affect how the rim feels, and the apparent sharpness of a particular rim may be caused by other things. Check out this page:

http://www.grmouthpieces.com/rim.html

In his lexicon you are talking about the "bite" of the mouthpiece.

Thanks for the link

[DutchEupho]

Hi Doug,

Have you tried weighing them? I seem to recall that the older 4AL's have more weight.

[daruby]

Hi Doug,

Have you tried weighing them? I seem to recall that the older 4AL's have more weight.

I have not, but I can guarantee the old one is lighter due to its thinner rim. All other dimensions appearing to be the same.

[Simes]

This is most curious as I’d always preferred the old 4ALs - I find the new ones too bright sounding. I have about 5 of them, and when picking my Globe Sovereign specified the oldest 4AL the seller had. I don’t use it all the time, but wanted it for marching because my everyday mouthpiece is irreplaceable, and I couldn’t face the thought of damaging it through clumsiness.

[DutchEupho]

Hi Doug,

I've compared a "old" 4AL with a "new" 4AL to and noticed that the old one goes in to my receiver a lot further. It's a difference of approx 3mm. This gives a totally different feel if I don't adjust the AGR settings on my E3.
The "old" 4AL gives a far more open sound then the newer one.

[tbonesullivan]

Aren't the current production all CNC lathe made? They should be extremely consistent now, while back in the "old days" when the template, scoop, or drill bit got worn, the specs would change a bit.

Still, looking back at the beginning of the thread, that's a pretty big difference. I wonder if they rearranged the sizing somehow.

[steff2032]

Maybe back in the days, they did'nt take into account that the cutting tools wore out?
Today its All done by computer, so everything is the same.

[davewerden]

Maybe back in the days, they did'nt take into account that the cutting tools wore out?
Today its All done by computer, so everything is the same.

That's an interesting thought. But I wonder about the mechanical parts. The computer tells the machinery what do, but something mechanical has to do the carving (until we start using lasers, I suppose). Can the computer adjust as the cutting tools start to wear, as they surely must. I confess I am not very familiar with the in's and out's of the process, so maybe they have somehow been able to allow for all mechanical factors.