Meinl Weston 751 Phoenix

[stephenhunt16]

I was surfing the euphonium web and noticed that the Meinl Weston 751 Phoenix retails for a little over $10,000. Why is it considerably more expensive? What about the horn makes it worth that much? I don't know of many people that play it either, so why the high price tag?

[daruby]

Inquiring minds have been wondering the same thing. I have tried the 751 2 or 3 times and found the trigger a mechanical disaster and the pitch problematic. AFAIK, now that Buffet owns Meinl-Weston, the production of the Meinl euphoniums is ending.

[davewerden]

...AFAIK, now that Buffet owns Meinl-Weston, the production of the Meinl euphoniums is ending.

Ah, the Microsoft approach!

[John Morgan]

Kind of the opposite of divide and conquer, here with Buffet it is acquire and merge/delete.

[John Morgan]

...I don't know of many people that play it either, so why the high price tag?

I think that question sort of answers itself. Or put another way, "the price tag is so high, that no one buys/plays it".

[adrian_quince]

Inquiring minds have been wondering the same thing. I have tried the 751 2 or 3 times and found the trigger a mechanical disaster and the pitch problematic. AFAIK, now that Buffet owns Meinl-Weston, the production of the Meinl euphoniums is ending.

I spent a good 30 minutes with one when I was shopping for horns a couple of years back. The pitch issues on the example I tried really stood out to me. The tendencies of the horn were unusual enough I found myself chipping a lot of notes, even after I had the instrument warmed up and felt like I generally had the center of the pitch.

At the time, I felt like it was probably me as a player, so I feel validated now. Thanks, Doug!

[euphdude]

Sorry to resurrect a thread that is several months old, but I saw a Meinl 451s on ebay recently for a good price, and went to research more about how the recent models stacked up to the older ones....and was shocked to see that Meinl has discontinued their entire euphonium line! I tried a 451 at Baltimore Brass about 12 years ago. I thought it had a very nice tone that to me was in line with the Sovereigns, perhaps a bit darker and richer, but the pitch was dreadful. The 6th partial was almost 50 cents sharp....far worse than any Sovereign I've played..... and I played several examples and they all exhibited this behavior. They came out with a later model, the 551, some years later and I tried it at the Army conference in the elephant room, and it seemed fine, if somewhat unremarkable. Never tried the Phoenix. I am sad to see a very famous name in low brass (even though they were never that popular in the euph world) pull out completely, but I suppose that is business these days with the mergers, etc. It is what it is.

[daruby]

Sorry to resurrect a thread that is several months old, but I saw a Meinl 451s on ebay recently for a good price, and went to research more about how the recent models stacked up to the older ones....and was shocked to see that Meinl has discontinued their entire euphonium line!

As far as I know, both the Meinl-Weston and B&S lines of euphoniums have been discontinued with the acquisition of the Gerhard Meinl businesses by Buffett/Besson. I believe that the thinking was that the Meinl Weston/B&S lines were needed for their tuba and German-style (i.e. rotary) brass, while the compensating euphonium products would be best served by focusing on the Besson branded products. This makes business sense to me.

Doug

[djwpe]

As far as I know, both the Meinl-Weston and B&S lines of euphoniums have been discontinued with the acquisition of the Gerhard Meinl businesses by Buffett/Besson. I believe that the thinking was that the Meinl Weston/B&S lines were needed for their tuba and German-style (i.e. rotary) brass, while the compensating euphonium products would be best served by focusing on the Besson branded products. This makes business sense to me.

Doug

It certainly makes business sense, but it's a loss to the euphonium work that the euphonium Gerhard was developing for Roland Fröscher never saw production. That was a really nice horn.


Don Winston

[iiipopes]

Kind of the opposite of divide and conquer, here with Buffet it is acquire and merge/delete.

Indeed. In exactly the same way that the Conn-Selmer cyborg bought up the rights to Armstrong, Martin, Buescher, Bundy, King, etc., and killed them. You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile.

[davewerden]

Indeed. In exactly the same way that the Conn-Selmer cyborg bought up the rights to Armstrong, Martin, Buescher, Bundy, King, etc., and killed them. You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile.

I know. I've been concerned for a while about Buffet buying so many brands. It's partly a reflex action on my part. Some nice software has been acquired by larger companies and then phased out over the years. I'm sure it does make good business sense, especially if the acquired company was unable to survive financially. On the other hand, I've been wondering for a while how many brands the euphonium market (to mention just one) could support in the marketplace. WE as players love all the choices, but running a company is tough, especially against tough competitors with deep pockets.

[daruby]

If we look back at the history, Besson/Boosey&Hawkes was virtually the only name in high quality professional class euphoniums from the end of WWII until the 1970s. The Blakely patent ran out in mid-1970's and a number of vendors started competing. Yamaha augmented their 321 with the 641 and then 642. Willson entered the market with the 2900 filling the gap left by the loss of the New Standard in the US military market. In the mid 1980s, Sterling broke off of Besson's manufacturing wing and started competing head-on with the Sovereign. Hirschbrunner had a select clientele much like Sterling.

The big rumble after the end of the Blakely patent in the "pro euphonium" market was when Besson went belly up in 2005. Two things happened. First, a number of companies rose from those ashes, providing new high quality compensating euphonium models. Secondly, a number of former Besson artists started looking for new vendors for support. The "new" vendors hawking all new models of euphoniums included York, Meinl/Weston, Miraphone, Willson, Buffett-Besson, Yamaha Custom and Neo, Adams, etc. On top of all of this, the development of reasonably good quality Chinese compensating instruments changes the "sweet spot" of the marketplace completely. As we approach the end of the 2nd decade of this millenium, it makes sense that there is a shake out in the brass instrument market in general and in the high end euphonium market in particular.

York is no more. Meinl-Weston/B&S euphonia are no more, effectively Hirschbrunner is no more, Sterling has focused on UK and continental Europe almost exclusively with very little US distribution. Any thoughts on who survives and who disappears?

Doug

[BDeisinger]

B&S makes today the what I call baritone/euphoniums with the rotary valves. I have one of the 4 valves and use it a lot. The pitch isn't perfect but works well in community bands and I've even used it once for solo work. It's nice and light, blows easy and easy on the fingers and hands. The only problem I've had is with another baritone player didn't like the direction of the bell. I've purchased perhaps the last of the B&S compensators, brand new, and with my luck the horn got damaged in shipping. A crease near the rim of the bell. Left with the only option of returning the horn, I opted to have the horn repaired and the company selling the horn will pick up the repair. I love the sound of the horn, a cross between German and Swiss. The valves work very freely except that the springs are terrible and I've ordered new. This was also the case of another B&S horn and replacing the springs was all the difference in the world. This horn has a trigger on the main tuning slide which is a bit of a problem because the main tuning slide is almost against the body and leg when sitting. The pitch is really good with one big exception, low B using 123 and it is sharp. Correction means the trigger all the way out which really doesn't work. 4 and 2 are perfectly in tune and I'm getting the hang of that combination when possible. I've always played 4 valve straight either front or side. I guess you can teach an old dog a new trick. I've played the horn in church as an euphonium-tuba duet and the blend was fantastic. I got a good price on the horn (they listed for $7,800) and at this point am satisfied with my purchase. I plan to make use of the horn in our brass ensemble at church and for the wind ensemble at the Bible College. It's been a long time dream to own a compensator. To tell the truth, I was unable to play a large bore horn and even had difficulty with the smaller horns with breath. After a new heart valve, eureka my breath is back and then some.

[Snorlax]

I played a couple of the 751s with the intention of buying if I could find one to my liking. One at a local-ish dealer I tried for a couple of hours was all over creation on pitch and had a host of mechanical issues. After I said no to the dealer, he called me back a few times with consistently lower price offers...that's one of many reasons he's now out of business.
I played another one for a half-hour or so at a Midwest a few years ago and it was no better.
The person who had been endorsing the 751 became an Adams endorser not too long after the appearance of the 751.