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Thread: Triggers......can't live with them can't live without them?

  1. That would be interesting for sure! I always thought carbon fiber would be quite expensive and could possibly be tricky to use as a trigger because of all the mechanics, but I'm no expert. Here's a thread on Tubenet about carbon fiber that is an interesting read.

    http://forums.chisham.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=19678
    Music Education and Music Theory Major
    Miraphone M5050

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Varese,Italy
    Posts
    150
    Before buying Besson Prestige 2052 in 2007 I played for 20 years with a Courtois model 165, non compensated 4 valves in line (manufactured from 1982 to 1999); wonderful instrument with a great dark sound easy to play and with a great response. With it I never need to have a trigger; the six partial was only little high on F (T C), with this note I used the alternative position 1-3 (7 partial) which is naturally very low, but with this position , that is very high with the other partials, on F it becomes perfect. F# and G are perfect; the only exception on this instrument is central C that wounds high (well with lip down or alternative position 2-3). In 2007, as I told before, I bought the Prestige that has a trigger for the rising notes, this trigger is wonderful, very easy to use. I play in a wind band: its use is necessary to be in tune with bassoon and clarinets that, generally play low, whereas I don't use is with the parts of Sax and Brass because they tend to be high, as along with my session friends that have no trigger. The leak of water present on the general slide when I bought it, was immediately eliminated by widening the final part of the tube with an espander, by generating a sort of gasket. It was widened as much as to avoid leak of water without compromise the fluency, which is very good. As lubricating I use a little bit of red grease for the slides along with a bit of oil for the pistons: the result is perfect. In the end I prefer to have the option of a trigger which gives more possibilities to play in tune; the added weight is not a problem since I generally play sit and the instrument comfortably rest on the lap. For the parades I play the baritone that is half weight and is comfortably to play marching.
    Last edited by franz; 03-12-2017 at 01:19 PM.
    Besson Prestige 2052,3D K&G mouthpiece;JP373 baritone,T4C K&G mouthpiece;Bach 42GO trombone,T4C K&G mouthpiece

  3. Quote Originally Posted by franz View Post
    Before buying Besson Prestige 2052 in 2007 I played for 20 years with a Courtois model 165, non compensated 4 valves in line (manufactured from 1982 to 1999); wonderful instrument with a great dark sound easy to play and with a great response. With it I never need to have a trigger; the six partial was only little high on F (T C), with this note I used the alternative position 1-3 (7 partial) which is naturally very low, but with this position , that is very high with the other partials, on F it becomes perfect. F# and G are perfect; the only exception on this instrument is central C that wounds high (well with lip down or alternative position 2-3). In 2007, as I told before, I bought the Prestige that has a trigger for the rising notes, this trigger is wonderful, very easy to use. I play in a wind band: its use is necessary to be in tune with bassoon and clarinets that, generally play low, whereas I don't use is with the parts of Sax and Brass because they tend to be high, as along with my session friends that have no trigger. The leak of water present on the general slide when I bought it, was immediately eliminated by widening the final part of the tube with an espander, by generating a sort of gasket. It was widened as much as to avoid leak of water without compromise the fluency, which is very good. As lubricating I use a little bit of red grease for the slides along with a bit of oil for the pistons: the result is perfect. In the end I prefer to have the option of a trigger which gives more possibilities to play in tune; the added weight is not a problem since I generally play sit and the instrument comfortably rest on the lap. For the parades I play the baritone that is half weight and is comfortably to play marching.
    Interesting what you say about widening the end of the tube - I suppose it's the same principal as the 'stocking' at the end of a trombone inner slide? You must have to get this spot on though.
    Does anybody have any experience with retro fitted triggers altering the sound or response of an instrument? If things such as a heavy 4th valve cap or lefreque plates make a difference, then I assume the added mass of a trigger assembly may have an effect? I'm interested in this as I'm currently toying with having a trigger added to one of my instruments, so any input appreciated.

  4. #24
    The extra mass and bracing makes a difference. It's one of the reasons that Miel Adams prefers not to fit a trigger on his horns unless the customer wants one. I'd say the effect is similar to adding heavy caps, but affects things to a greater degree. If you like the effect of heavy valve caps, you might actually prefer the horn with a trigger because of that. I personally sit in the middle. I like my heavy 4th valve cap, but I prefer the more responsive feel of the horn without the trigger.
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    YouTube: dwerden
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  5. Quote Originally Posted by davewerden View Post
    The extra mass and bracing makes a difference. It's one of the reasons that Miel Adams prefers not to fit a trigger on his horns unless the customer wants one. I'd say the effect is similar to adding heavy caps, but affects things to a greater degree. If you like the effect of heavy valve caps, you might actually prefer the horn with a trigger because of that. I personally sit in the middle. I like my heavy 4th valve cap, but I prefer the more responsive feel of the horn without the trigger.
    Thanks David. One of the things I really like about my imperial is how delicate and responsive it can be. It would be a shame to spoil this, but as it's a large shank model the usual tuning niggles are awkward - hence thinking of adding the trigger. I suppose I may have become spoiled and lazy with my triggered instruments in the last 15 years, and used to not having to bend and false finger notes.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Varese,Italy
    Posts
    150
    In order to enlarge the tube of a slide and avoid the leak of water, or to make it harder if too loose, it's necessary to have a spander. TO make it at home it's rather simply but you must have a lathe, otherwise you can have the spander built by a workshop. Concerning the difference of weight of something added to the instrument, a trigger an change something to the sound but not too much. TO have significant effects,the weights should be located in particular points ( heavy cup 4 valve or lefreque plates). On an instrument originally created without trigger, you should be very careful and consider what follows:
    1) is it really necessary ? Are there many untuned notes that claim it, or I can do without ?
    2) Is the instrument lacquered or silver plated ? If lacquered it's better to give up because the welding will damage the lacque leaving a bad look. If silver plated you can have the instrument replated.
    3) Is the cost of this work justified ?
    IN 1998 / 99 I wanted to buy a Prestige made in England; I kept it for one week but then I decided it was not worth while (I don't know why but I was not persuaded: lottery instruments?). So I thought to add a trigger to my Courtois 165 but with only two notes to be modified (central C and high F), "the game was not worth while the candle", simply.


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    Last edited by franz; 03-16-2017 at 12:40 PM.
    Besson Prestige 2052,3D K&G mouthpiece;JP373 baritone,T4C K&G mouthpiece;Bach 42GO trombone,T4C K&G mouthpiece

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    155
    I always considered getting a trigger on my Sovereign because of the horrible tuning on the G above the staff (TC), I can get it under control with 1-2 but then the note sounds really stuffy. High F is the same but more manageble. But to get a trigger for only those two notes... eh no not feeling it.

  8. #28
    The modern way for many 'brass techs' to fettle loose slides tends to be to flare out the last bit of the slide legs. This lasts so long then it needs it again, ultimately it can split.... I'm especially speaking from experience out my old euphs wearing thier 2nd valve slides loose from repeated water dumping. The more traditional and effective way to do it is to expand the full length of the tuning slide leg with a time consuming method called planishing. Basically inserting as large a bar as far as possible into the leg then hammering the outside of the leg. The metal cannot dent inward due to the bar so it's only course is "stretch outward". This is great for normal slides and as I said I've done it a little to my trigger slide on the prestige but need to do a little more.
    However the trombone stocking comparison made me think perhaps the method of flaring only the end of the legs may indeed be better to over come loose trigger problems.
    all the best
    Dave
    Current Euphs:
    Besson Prestige (German)
    York Eminence
    Boosey & Hawkes Sovereign (Round Stamp/ Globe)
    Boosey & Hawkes Imperial
    Plus an attic of old classics in various states of repair!

    Previous Euphs:

    Geneva Symphony
    Wilson 2900 with Eminence leadpipe
    Sterling Virtuoso (300 mm heavy red brass bell)
    Cortios 167 II

    'Gob Iron': Doug Elliott Euph 105 I 9s (plus a few others!)


  9. #29
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Varese,Italy
    Posts
    150
    I removed the trigger lever of my ten years old Besson Prestige to remake the gold plating that came off; the craftsman is busy and he will take some time to the job, so I now play without the trigger. The problematic notes are two, F fifth line and G above (TC), which I play with the alternative positions, 1-3 for F and 1-2 for G. They are harmonic sevenths ( 31 cents lower than the temperate scale), but 1-3 and, to a lesser extent 1-2 are combinations that generate increasing sounds (for this reason the fourth valve is present), the result obtained is a perfect matched F and a slightly waning G, which can be easily put in place with the lips. I have not had difficulty using alternative positions as I used 1-3 for F on my previous horn, a Courtoise 165, while for G I used the normal open position because it was ok.
    Besson Prestige 2052,3D K&G mouthpiece;JP373 baritone,T4C K&G mouthpiece;Bach 42GO trombone,T4C K&G mouthpiece

  10. #30
    The only stock horn I ever had with a trigger was the Sterling Virtuoso. The horn was sharp in the expected partials, but I found the trigger did not help appreciably. Furthermore, it was difficult to operate. The mainspring on the paddle was EXTREMELY strong and required lots of oomph (and potential tendonitis injuries) to activate.

    I had an after-market trigger put on a 967 I owned. Wasn't the best situation either, though the installer did the best he could with what he had.

    The Adams E2 I now have does not need a trigger. The only iffy note I have is 4th space G in the bass clef, which is horribly sharp when fingered 1-2. I play 3rd valve on that note when extended and that fixes it nicely.
    U.S. Army, Retired (built mid-Fifties)
    Adams E2 Euph (built 2017)
    Boosey & Co. Imperial Euph (built 1941)
    Edwards B454 Bass Trombone (built 2012)
    Boosey & Hawkes Imperial Eb tuba (built 1958)
    Kanstul 33-T lBBb tuba (built 2010)
    Shen 3/4 upright bass (who cares?)

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