Triggers......can't live with them can't live without them?

[ydave]

I'm now on my 6th euph with a trigger and I'm fed up with them!
Without exception they have all created problems:


-Not least the comfort factor....... triggers add a significant weight and most of the "paddles" go just where we traditionally wrap our left thumbs around the outer 3rd valve slide leg. This diminishes your left hand grip which is where I like to take most of the instrument weight, leaving the right hand more relaxed on the valves. Add to this that I find many of my recent euphs have had the false piece much nearer to the valves than on early Sovs means weight levering on the right thumb instead of Cradled in the web of the hand. For me and my hours of over practicing this has meant severe tendinitis in both thumbs and mid back strain. One very good way of helping with this is the horn rinse lift kit..... I use the cushion when my back is bad and keep the wrist strap on all the time.
-Everyone I have had has snapped at least once in some place or another
-More hassle when it's bath time, I found it prudent to partially dismantle rather than wrap a cloth around and hope for the best on the scratch and snap front!
-the only free easy to use one I've had was a prestige, but I soon found out why......a very loose main tuning slide that constantly dribbles....looks great on my trousers! I planished it so it was a better fit, but unless I over lubricate it with unwatered down Lanalin so I can't use the trigger affectively it still dribbles. And yes I've tried everything from slide cream, trigger lubricants to light greases!

But they are very good for those top Fs and Gs etc (TC) above the stave or a top E on second with trigger to bring it down, below that I find notes very easy to lip. I can lip these notes so far but with some ensembles it's only just enough.... But depending on the euph, alternate fingerings particular on and around those notes can feel quit stuffy.

Sorry got ranting on a bit.........probably as I'm considering going for another euph and fancy not getting a trigger this time.........or is it worth it???? Any thoughts? I know when I changed from my round stamp that non of the new euphs played in tune ...... I was so used to putting the notes in very different places! I think that a lot of younger players seem to think it essential.......yes it makes life easier to be able to blow notes thru the middle with a trigger....but at what cost? Trevor Groom, Lyndon Baglin, David Moore etc seemed to play very nicely without them!
YD

[RickF]

Hi Dave. Haven't seen you post in awhile. That's quite a stable of horns you have there.

I don't care for triggers either as I have enough trouble coordinating my 4 fingers. I'm thankful that my Miraphone 5050 Ambassador doesn't need one. The worst note on the M5050 is the 'A' on the TC staff (concert 'G'). I use 3rd valve for that note - unless it's a 16th note... your semiquaver.

[davewerden]

I feel your pain! Perhaps even more so, because I have an old injury to my left wrist that makes it a bit "fragile" in some ways. The trigger on my Sterling was a lot of stress on my wrist.

With the Adams I did not need to order a trigger, and I (like Rick) am very glad to be rid of it. No horn has perfect intonation, but the Adams can be managed without a trigger.

My trigger did not break, but it was put out of action after a Delta flight. The flat-sided wooden case was apparently squeezed enough that it sprung the main tuning slide and the trigger could not operate it. Actually, the trigger itself was not damaged, but the tuning slide problem made it unusable. Unfortunately, I had practiced very hard on the piece I was to premier on that trip and was dependent on the trigger. And of course there IS more maintenance with the trigger, which is nice to be rid of.

[DaveBj]

I, on the other hand, have vowed that if I ever do buy an upscale horn (waiting to win the lottery, but must wait first for Alabama to get a lottery, and that's not on the horizon), it WILL have a trigger, because I'd rather have one and not need it than need it and not have it. I'm tired of having to fit alternate fingerings into passages that I'm learning, wondering if the note will pass quickly enough that its sharpness won't be noticed, etc.

[booboo]

Currently wrestling with this question myself. I've a great 1974 imperial in wonderful condition and it makes a lovely sound, but the usual area around the sixth partial is wild. Good fingerings seem to be d-3;eb-1,3;e-2,3;f-12(a bit flat)g-3.
They slot well and the sound is sweet, but constant re-fingering of entire passages is a pain. I'm currently torn between just a lot more practise until these fingerings become second nature or spending on a trigger.

[daruby]

YD,

Yup, I have had all of the problems you describe. That is why I have 2 horns, my Sterling (with Trigger) and my English-made late Sovereign 967 with Eminence leadpipe. When the tendinitis kicks in, I switch to the lighter triggerless Sovereign.

Doug

PS My Sterling is the same vintage as yours was. I still love mine. But I recently "improved" the trigger situation by getting the trigger spring "lightened".

[ydave]

One thing to consider for my own playing is that I use an awful lot of alternative fingerings anyway despite the trigger. Not for intonation so much as smoothness in very quiet playing and speed for very fast playing when a lip slur just won't do the job well enough. I'm all for making things easier then I can concentrate on other aspects of my playing.

[ydave]

Hi Doug
never stopped loving my Sterling......the Baufiend (spelling?) valves never felt like home... Bigger than the trad Boosey and Hawkes. I always said that if Paul started using a smaller valve block I would revisit them......which is what I am now thinking.
Best
Dave

[John Morgan]

My Adams E3 has a trigger. I use it seldom, but like having it there, ready if I need it. I never even think about using it on notes less than a quarter note, and even then don't usually use it unless I am on the note for a while. What is a while? A while is long enough to hear the intonation is out of whack and wishing it would be more in tune. As I play and am familiar with a piece, I hear the notes before I play them, so I always try to pitch the note correctly (in tune). There aren't many notes on the Adams that are bad, and perhaps none that are really bad. The staff G (Bass Clef) on my horn plays fine 1-2 or 3. The F above the staff plays a little sharp, and if I am not liking how I have the pitch centered, I may use a little trigger. There are a couple other notes I tend to adjust on.

The trigger on the Adams seems robust enough. I don't expect any problems. I have owned two other euphoniums with triggers, the Besson Prestige 2052 and the Miraphone M5050. I did not like the aesthetics of the Besson with the big plastic "gut guard" piece (that has been changed??). Both of these triggers worked okay and I had no problems with them, however I only owned them for a few years in each case.

I think if I had it to do over again, I would still order the Adams with the trigger. I could live happily without it, but just kind of like to have it as David said above. When you have to lip a note, no matter how good you are, if you move that note off center to get it in tune by using your lip, you lose a little of the note's best sound. And alternate fingerings are seldom, if ever, as good-sounding as normal/usual fingerings. And you are doing it typically on a note that you sustain long enough for you and your audience to hear. Why not give you and them the very best sound?

My fifty two cents (adjusted for inflation).

[booboo]

Those of you that play/played the pre large receiver and bell boosey / bessons. Do you think they were a lot better in tune or just easier to 'lip' than the bigger sovereign and large receiver imperials?
One concern that I have is that now the trigger is an almost universally accepted 'fifth valve' some manufacturers will give up trying to develop instruments that are better in tune. We still have to deal with our (few) flat notes too!

[davewerden]

My band horn for a few years was a Besson with the medium shank. The band horn was just ordered from a U.S. dealer with no chance for a pre-trial/selection. It was better in tune than the next 2 horns I had, both of which were newer and had the large receiver. Then when I got my Sovereign 967 is was even less in tune on the 6th partial.

But I've heard some of the British players with similar models sound pretty well in tune on those troublesome notes. There is something in the players' contribution, I'm sure. The British euphonium artists seem to play with very wide-open jaws and a robust vibrato, which may somehow affect the equation.

Whatever. But I just know that for all my years of professional Besson playing (about 20) I needed alternate fingerings on the 6th partial. That covers the early medium-shank, 2 New Standards with large shank (one band, one personal), 2 band Sovereigns and 2 personal Sovereigns (plus numerous other Bessons that I tested as a Besson artist). The very sharp 6th partial was common to them all to some extent, and got progressively worse from medium to large to Sovereign. The Sterling was better by a little, but still needed alternate fingerings until I got the Virtuoso with a trigger.

[booboo]

Interesting to hear your perspective having played all the bessons from the small shank imperial to the 967 during your career. I wonder if some of the British players sounded in tune because they were playing with brass band accompaniment? I think the brass band is a little more friendly to the besson sixth partial than the wind band or piano. Wind band is a particularly tough environment as some of the woodwind tend flat just as we hit the problem notes.

[graeme]

Hi Dave. I also have the leaking main tuning slide on my Prestige the best lubricant I have found to hold off the leaking for the
most time is Hetman Heavy Slide Lubricant 6 (Tuning Slide Oil) the trigger action is good but I agree the trigger is not comfortable but I
have not had a trigger previously so cannot make any comparison

[euphony]

I think some horns need it more than others, not just because of better/worse intonation on the horn's part, but also sensitivity to lipping notes, and response in general.

As for me and my horn, I currently play (est 2006) Sovereign 967 and my life would be MUCH easier if it had a trigger. Right now I'm dealing with a flat (BC) top of staff Bb and a sharp F3. If I could just push in to get the Bb and then use a trigger for F and G (as well as other pesky notes, though I usually sit comfortably in tune on the usual problem notes (ledger line D-F). That might be a weird me thing though, since my ledger F sat somewhat flat on most of the horns I played on at TMEA (notably the larger horns like Miraphone and Adams E3)

[highpitch]

Having done quite a bit of mechanical engineering, my feelings about the available trigger systems were they were just done in a hurry by jewelers or some such.

Emphasis apparently on 'finesse' not on practicability of action nor durability.

Most of you have seen the device I helped design for my Besson. It is tougher than nails, never needs adjustment, and it looks plenty 'blingy'

Dennis