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Thread: FS: Besson Sovereign 967 in Silver - Very Nice

  1. #1

    Thumbs up FS: Besson Sovereign 967 in Silver - Very Nice

    This 967 has the floating leadpipe and includes the case in great shape and at least one leather hand guard (3rd valve slide). Starting bid is $3500 and the buy-it-now price is $4,550.

    ITEM SOLD FOR $3,500.

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Besson-BE967-Sovereign-Series-Silver-Compensating-Euphonium-/201791554759?

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    Last edited by davewerden; 02-09-2017 at 05:23 PM.
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    Alliance Mouthpiece (DC3)
    YouTube: dwerden
    Facebook: davewerden
    Twitter: davewerden
    Instagram: davewerdeneuphonium

  2. #2
    A bit hard to tell without the serial number, but it looks like an early 00's English Sovereign. Looks like a fairly good deal for the price.

  3. I checked with the seller. The serial# is 899637. It is about a 2003-04. After the Edgeware Road factory shutdown but before the transition to German production.
    Adams E3 0.60 Sterling bell - Prototype top sprung valves
    Concord Band
    Winchendon Winds
    Townsend Military Band

  4. So is that a decent year for Bessons? I'm considering buying this horn but I don't know Besson well enough to know which years were good and which were not. I am looking for a new professional euph but don't really know what I want. I played a Willson 2900 in college and liked it except for the medium shank mouthpiece. I have also played a non-compensating Besson and liked it but don't have as much experience with the compensating models. To be honest, I'm also considering the Wessex euph as well. I'm having a hard time with this though because I've always associated a stigma with the Chinese horns. I know they've gotten better, but I still have that in my head. Any thoughts/comments would be very welcome...

    Thanks,
    Doug

  5. #5
    In general there were good Bessons made every year and some that were not as good every year. But I don't recall enough about the general trends to say which years give you better odds.

    Can some of our Besson experts jump in on this? What were the "lottery years" for example?
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    Alliance Mouthpiece (DC3)
    YouTube: dwerden
    Facebook: davewerden
    Twitter: davewerden
    Instagram: davewerdeneuphonium

  6. Some history...

    Boosey & Hawkes was both a music publisher and instrument manufacturer prior to 1948. Boosey & Hawkes bought Besson London in 1948 and manufactured instruments under both names post WWII. Boosey & Hawkes purchased Buffet-Crampon in 1981 as well as other manufacturers in Europe in the 90's. The "Lottery Years" began in the 1990's with the availability of funding from the British National Lottery for arts groups. Over-production during the lottery years directly led to the downfall of Boosey & Hawkes in the early 2000's. This downfall included quality issues, but the biggest issue was too much inventory due to the over production. Accounting irregularities (aka "channel stuffing") in its Chicago-based US distribution led to a £13m loss in 2001. Boosey & Hawkes went into receivership in 2001 and was broken up in 2003. The Boosey & Hawkes name and publishing business was acquired by Hg Capital for £40m. The instrument manufacturing was sold for £33.2m to The Music Group. The Music Group spun out the various companies (Buffet Crampon, Besson, Hohner, Schreiber & Keilwerth) in early 2005.

    The London factory on Edgeware Road was shut down as a cost-cutting measure in late 2001 with serial number 890008 being the last Besson London instrument. My Sovereign is a very late Edgeware Road horn with a serial number of 886505. Instruments manufactured in 2002 through 2005 with serial numbers higher than 890008 have parts fabricated at Schreiber-Keilwerth in Markneukirchen, Germany but were assembled and tested in Watford, Hertfordshire. These later instruments were still marketed with a "Made in England" stamp on the bell. The Besson brand went into receivership on Dec. 8, 2005. There was essentially no production of Besson brass instruments from late 2005 until late 2006/early 2007. This led to a plethora of great new instruments from competitors and a complete realignment of artist sponsorships, but that is another story.

    In 2006, Buffet Crampon (now a successful separate company) purchased the Besson name but not the manufacturing capability out of the receivership. New Besson branded low brass were made at a B&S factory in Markneukirchen using all new tooling. There were a very limited set of Prestige and Sovereign euphoniums made in November and December of 2006 but volume production and Tuba manufacturing didn't start until later in 2007. We call these the "German" Bessons. They have serial numbers on the leadpipe receiver instead of the bell. My January 2007 Prestige had a serial number of 06-000175 and was from just the third production batch of German horns. After the 2005 receivership, Schreiber-Keilwerth was stuck with its investment in tooling from the "Besson London" brass instruments and tried to compete with Buffet Crampon under the York name from 2007 until it too was acquired by Buffet Crampon in August 2010 and York production was shut down.

    The horn in question here with a serial number of 899637 was from "The Music Group" era rather than the "lottery era" and would have had parts that were made in Markneukirchen using the original Edgeware Road tooling but assembled in Watford. It has clearly been extremely well taken care of. As David Werden stated, each horn is different and this may be a great player (or it may not).
    Last edited by daruby; 01-20-2017 at 08:51 PM.
    Adams E3 0.60 Sterling bell - Prototype top sprung valves
    Concord Band
    Winchendon Winds
    Townsend Military Band

  7. #7
    Thanks, Doug - that is very nice background! In fact, I decided to start a forum under "Reference" for history of manufacturers. I copied your post into that.

    http://www.dwerden.com/forum/showthr...kes-and-Besson
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    Alliance Mouthpiece (DC3)
    YouTube: dwerden
    Facebook: davewerden
    Twitter: davewerden
    Instagram: davewerdeneuphonium

  8. Quote Originally Posted by davewerden View Post
    Thanks, Doug - that is very nice background! In fact, I decided to start a forum under "Reference" for history of manufacturers. I copied your post into that.
    Dave, I was still making a few edits and corrections, so I updated the Reference section.
    Adams E3 0.60 Sterling bell - Prototype top sprung valves
    Concord Band
    Winchendon Winds
    Townsend Military Band

  9. #9
    Thanks, Doug.
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    Alliance Mouthpiece (DC3)
    YouTube: dwerden
    Facebook: davewerden
    Twitter: davewerden
    Instagram: davewerdeneuphonium

  10. By the way, two distinct cost-driven issues that crept into the "lottery era" instruments (that I know of) were the switch to stainless steel valves from Monel plating and a change in sheet brass suppliers. My data on this is partially documented and partially from anecdotal sources so it needs to be taken with a grain of salt. I can say that the valve issues are definitely in my late Edgeware horn and continued on into the York produced horns. I am told by my source that Boosey & Hawkes/Besson had used the same sheet brass supplier for decades, and then switched to an inferior supplier due to cost issues. The new supplier had a slightly different alloying content and/or issues with contamination that affected plating and appearance of red-rot. I don't know exactly when this change occurred.

    Both York and German-Besson used continental suppliers, so I presume brass content issues were less of an issue.
    Adams E3 0.60 Sterling bell - Prototype top sprung valves
    Concord Band
    Winchendon Winds
    Townsend Military Band

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