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Thread: FS: Besson Sovereign 967 in Silver - Very Nice

  1. #11
    That's a great read. I knew a little about the history of Boosey & Hawkes / Besson, but certainly not going into that length. Very interesting to hear about the issues with productions and cost.

    Regardless, I wouldn't purchase a Besson / B & H euphonium unplayed or at least unseen. With the issues Besson had in the late 90's and early 00's, you never know if you are going to get a gem, or a dog. In my limited experience on euphonium, I have owned 3 Sovereigns (plus I had a little bit of experience playing on German Sovereigns). One was a B & H, which played very nice. Free blowing, good intonation (for a Sovereign), nice tone and solid build quality. The other two were Besson Sovereigns (one from the 80's - can't remember the exact year and a GS model from '99). The older Besson had a warm tone (darker then the B & H), but it was very stuffy and it had an unplayable high concert B. Slightly better intonation though. The GS model was from the lottery grant period, and it showed. Bad build quality when it came it the valves and slides, which was a pity because the Sovereign played beautifully. Good intonation, nice tone, and very free blowing. Awesome projection.

    So the point I'm making here is every Sovereign (actually every Besson), is different in some way. There are some gems out there that some people will take any day of the week over the a new Sovereign or Prestige. However, there are some dogs out there as well.

    In reference to the particular one advertised, it looks like a great instrument. If the owner has bothered to keep it in great condition, then it might be a great Sovereign.

  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by daruby View Post
    By the way, two distinct cost-driven issues that crept into the "lottery era" instruments (that I know of) were the switch to stainless steel valves from Monel plating and a change in sheet brass suppliers. My data on this is partially documented and partially from anecdotal sources so it needs to be taken with a grain of salt. I can say that the valve issues are definitely in my late Edgeware horn and continued on into the York produced horns.
    The national lottery started in Nov. 1994 and they switched to stainless steel pistons in early 1994 or the end of 1993. I understand this was a cost-saving measure and the idea was to have valves that were more precisely machined so that the manual work of fitting individual pistons to casings was minimized. You can see it in the finish of the pistons.

    Stainless steel is often presented as a superior material by manufacturers, and it certainly is harder and more difficult to braze the brass passages into the valves, but I wonder if the switch to stainless is more often driven by some cost savings...

    It's almost impossible to plate monel as the component metals in the alloy have different solutions and voltages required, so you won't get an even plating. Monel pistons are made from solid monel tubing.
    --
    Barry

  3. Wow... Thanks for all the history! That's great.
    Along those same lines then, were there good and bad years/periods for Willson horns, or is there as much variation between horns built in the same year?
    I really hate to buy a horn without playing it, but there are some good deals on eBay...

    Also, I have read the forums and know that some of you really like the Wessex horns as a backup or second horn... How do the Wessex compare overall to something like a Willson or a Miraphone or a Sterling?

    Thanks again,
    Doug

  4. #14
    Willsons are pretty consistent. I've heard from some dedicated Willson players that the newer ones are better, so in general the most recent examples are the best.
    --
    Barry

  5. #15
    I have never heard of good/bad years with Willson. ANY brand has a horn-to-horn variation, but apparently Willsons were similar enough that no flags have been raised.

    As for Wessex, the convention statement is that a clone horn is about 80% as good as a pro horn for 20% of the price. It might even be higher than 80%, but there is still a difference.
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    Alliance Mouthpiece (DC3)
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  6. #16
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    As a current owner of a Wessex Dolce (Jan 2016) and an owner of many Bessons, a Yamaha 842S, a Hirsbruner, a Miraphone M5050 and currently an Adams E3, I can say it is an excellent horn. I used my Wessex exclusively for almost 6 months, playing in a couple concert bands, and playing Carnival of Venice perhaps a dozen times at concerts. Dave's statement that a clone horn is about 80% as good as a pro horn for about 20% of the price I think is about right on average. In my case, comparing the Wessex Dolce to my current horn, the Adams E3 (which has some extra, costly options on it), my Wessex is about 12% of the cost of my Adams. I would rate the Wessex at about 80% as good as my Adams, however, for other pro horns, I would rate the Wessex at about 85% or a little more as good (I think my Adams is the best pro horn out there, my opinion, of course, so the reason for rating the Wessex not quite as high vs. the Adams).

    In any event, the Wessex is a great horn. I would have loved to have been able to buy a Wessex back in 1970 when I purchased my first Besson, and was literally broke for a year (in college). I do not plan to part with my Wessex, even though I have my new Adams (and a 1956 B&H Imperial recently acquired). I have already used the Wessex in a few situations where I would not be comfortable with my Adams (fretting about getting it banged into). It is simply a very good, compensating euphonium. I would think that schools that have a tight music budget would certainly take a long look at getting Wessex horns.

    For those who might be curious about the 15-20% difference in a Wessex vs. a top end pro horn, in my case when comparing my Wessex to my Adams, these are the differences I find:

    1. The high range of the Wessex does not speak as easily or sound as full on the Wessex. It will play a high B natural, but not as good as my Adams (some high end horns are really crummy on that note, too - my Miraphone played it better than any other horn, including my Adams). Notes above high concert Bb just don't have quite the presence or fullness on the Wessex. They are useable, however. I end Carnival of Venice on a high Eb above high Bb, and the Wessex and I did it fine.
    2. The build quality and fit and finish is very good on the Wessex, but probably just a tiny bit inferior to a very top end horn. Mind you that this is hardly noticeable, and I feel the quality is very close to the best top end horns, but not quite fully equal. This may be changing as I write this. My Wessex euphonium's build quality WAS better than one of my previous Bessons, by the way.
    3. Sound is the single most important aspect of any euphonium for me. The Adams is exquisite and I think unmatched. The Wessex is very, very nice, but does not quite measure up in the sonority of the sound. It is, as I said, very good. To the untrained ear, many would not hear much of a difference. I do, however, both are nice.
    4. A couple other things, the case for my horn is way nicer than what comes with the Wessex, but for such a low price, the Wessex case is fully useable and sufficient. Also, I did not care much for the mouthpiece (both the size and design - it looks cheap). Here, too, I think this is a cost saving decision. Use your own favorite mouthpiece (large shank).

    I have played on several euphonium brands in music stores (cheaper brands, not the top end pro horns), and most or them have been really yucky. I usually always like playing on most euphoniums, but these I wanted to put down much sooner than I normally would because they were not very good. Most of these horns cost more than the Wessex. They were not even in the same league as the Wessex. The Wessex horn is so much better than these horns, and much closer to the top end horns in every way.
    Last edited by John Morgan; 01-23-2017 at 04:41 PM.
    John Morgan
    The U.S. Army Band (Pershing's Own) 1971-1976
    Adams E3 Custom Series Euphonium, 1956 B&H Imperial Euphonium,
    1973 F. E. Olds & Son Studio Model T-31 Baritone
    Adams TB1 Tenor Trombone, Yamaha YBL-822G Bass Trombone
    Year Round Except Summer:
    Kingdom of the Sun (KOS) Concert Band, Ocala, FL (Euphonium)
    KOS Brass Quintet (Trombone, Euphonium)
    Summer Only:
    Rapid City Municipal Band, Rapid City, SD (Euphonium)
    Rapid City New Horizons Band (Euphonium)

  7. #17
    Not wanting to hijack a thread, but did Yamaha have any good or bad years? Yamaha has always had a reputation for being very consistent between each instrument and I have never heard of Yamaha having any 'bad years', but I don't know for sure.

  8. Yamaha - Its all good as far as build quality. Some issues with valve clearances being too tight.

    The notion of "good years" and "bad years" is mostly a Besson sort of thing due to the issues with their manufacturing process and management faux pas.. Once you get past Besson, the discussion tends to be more of a "good model vs. not as good model, sort of thing (Yamaha 641 vs 642 vs. 642 NEO vs 842), various versions of Meinl (not a fan of any of them), Miraphone (like the 5050), etc.

    The best advice of all is to try the horn and see how it plays for you. Good year vs. Bad year or model selection is more of a thing when purchasing off of eBay where you can't play the horn in advance.
    Adams E3 0.60 Sterling bell - Prototype top sprung valves
    Concord Band
    Winchendon Winds
    Townsend Military Band

  9. Quote Originally Posted by daruby View Post
    The best advice of all is to try the horn and see how it plays for you. Good year vs. Bad year or model selection is more of a thing when purchasing off of eBay where you can't play the horn in advance.
    That is my biggest problem... I really hate to buy a horn without playing it. That's how I ended up with the horn I have now that I'm not crazy about. However, I don't want to pay full price for a brand new horn and finding a way to play various used ones before buying is very difficult.

  10. Monel "plating"? - Monel is an alloy, not a plating. The entire valve is made of the alloy.

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