Buying a tuba tomorrow

[Koukalaka]

KKoro, I may be missing it in the discussion above, but what kind of tuba did you buy?

This thread is perfectly timed for me, as I just ordered a tuba last week myself. I'm primarily a pianist, but played trumpet as a kid, and when my daughter started middle school band a couple of years ago, I realized that the fingerings I still had in my head for the trumpet would work for the euphonium in treble clef. I bought a used Jupiter 3-valve and played it for a while, then bought a Mack Brass compensating 4-valve euphonium. I have been absolutely thrilled with this beautiful instrument and have worked my way up to playing a few solos at church. I have always been fascinated by the tuba as well, and decided to take the plunge.

I have been so impressed with my Mack euph (and with Tom McGrady) that I decided to stick with a Mack, and I ordered his 5-valve CC tuba. I'm hoping this will work well for me, as the fingerings for a CC should be basically the same as the TC 4-valve euph fingerings that I already know, with a few 5th-valve tricks in the lower range. I have a Kelly 25 mouthpiece that I bought several months ago to mess around with, and just bought the Arban text to learn on.

Any advice from you experienced players about how to approach learning the tuba while still developing skills on the euphonium? Will I lose ground with respect to euphonium skills for a while? I hope not; I'm hoping that both instruments will complement one another and that I'll eventually be able to switch back and forth without too much trouble. I plan to play the tuba a lot this winter, but I don't want my euphonium to feel neglected.

[KKORO]

KKoro, I may be missing it in the discussion above, but what kind of tuba did you buy?

Hi Koukalaka, I bought a King 1135.

When I decided to play Euphoium last year, I bought an old beater to see if I like playing the Euphonium. I liked the sound, the feel, the vibrations, the whole experience. Then I bought a King 2280 Euphonium and love it.

I've had the King 1135 Tuba for a week now -- an old beater, like my first Euphonium. I've played it every day. It seems to play fine. Sorry to say, it just doesn't move me the same as a Euphonium. Like you, I've done a few solos at church with my Euphonium. I'm starting a brass ensemble and we don't have a tuba for the group and I was hoping to get the same enjoyment from the Tuba as I did from the Euphonium. The ensemble sure sounds a lot better with that low register. I may keep the Tuba to lend it to folks who don't have one but would like to play with our ensemble. Or, I may sell it. It just doesn't give me the same enjoyment as the Euphonium.

I hesitate to write this as I don't want to discourage folks who want to play both. There are many on this site that play both and seem to enjoy it. Maybe it's my advanced age that makes me not want to start down a long learning process. I'll be sticking to, and enjoying immensely, my Euphonium playing.

KKORO

[ghmerrill]

You can (or I should rather say "one can") get enjoyment out of both the tuba and euphonium -- but you really have to enjoy two different things in order to do that. The euphonium I think of as a kind of "singing" instrument, often playing the melody line, often in a very comfortable register, and often with great solo (or soli) opportunities. It's a great deal of fun to play.

You can almost never get those same things out of tuba playing. Sure, there are tuba solos, and sure sometimes in a band or quintet piece the tuba has a "solo" line -- but it isn't the same. The role of the tuba is quite different. It provides the "foundation" to the piece, and you have to enjoy doing that -- playing precisely and in tune in order for the overall piece to sound good. I find the tuba more difficult to play. This isn't to say that the euphonium isn't difficult to play in virtuoso kind of work, but in just the regular mundane band parts, for me the tuba takes more effort and concentration to play well. This is mostly because of the larger mouthpiece (and consequent greater latitude for sloppiness), and because the response of the instrument is so much less immediate than the euphonium. You can't play the tuba as a "low euphonium", and you can't (in genuine euphonium parts) play the euphonium as a "high tuba" -- even though physically the euphonium is a small tuba and the tuba is a large euphonium.

So no -- you won't get the "same enjoyment" from tuba and euphonium. But you might get the same "degree" of enjoyment from each. Just depends on what it is you enjoy in playing music, or what you can come to enjoy.

I have a friend (previously a boss some years ago) who plays both piano and trumpet. He's absolutely excellent at both. But he doesn't get the "same enjoyment" from them. I suppose that's one reason he plays them both. I suppose that's one reason I play tuba and euphonium and trombone (bass, and now tenor). I do get more enjoyment out of each of these than I did form saxophone (which I was playing for 15 years), though I did genuinely enjoy playing flute, and would again if time permitted.

[davewerden]

I don't see any reason not to play both tuba and euphonium. They are compatible in general concept (valve technique, type of air use) and I have not found any harm to my euphonium playing during my periods where I've played tuba regularly. Tuba playing seemed to strengthen my chops on euphonium and it was absolutely good for my air.

I've had enough back trouble lately that it limits my tuba playing - carrying it and even moving it between floor and my lap is rough on my back. I may sell my Sovereign Eb and buy something lighter. We'll see. But I would like to have a tuba that I can use. It really is fun to play tuba!

[KKORO]

Maybe I just need to buy a better tuba. Or maybe one of those cute little tournisters?

KKORO

[ghmerrill]

I've had enough back trouble lately that it limits my tuba playing - carrying it and even moving it between floor and my lap is rough on my back.

I'm facing my own back problems now -- though so far they aren't having an effect on carting the tuba around or playing. However, I have thought that if the time comes that I can't handle something like the Wessex 981 clone and still want to continue with tuba, the thing to look for would be a medium to large bore "vintage" American Eb tuba -- either front or top action. In that case, I might prefer 4 valves; but a lot of those horns have excellent ghost tones and so you really don't need 4. They are MUCH lighter than the British compensating horns. And they're typically relatively VERY inexpensive.

[iiipopes]

Some years ago, I played in a community band with a gentleman who played the same King model. The rounded Bach cup mouthpieces he tried to use gave the tuba an edgy or grainy tone, especially in the lower register. He switched to a Conn Helleberg 120S - the deeper of the two models Conn makes (the other being the moderately deep cup 7), and his tone improved dramatically throughout the range.

[ghmerrill]

Yeah, but I've never been able to use a 120S. It's one mouthpiece that just seems to suck the life out of me. You can get great "organ like" tone, but for me it's like trying to blow into the vacuum side of a vacuum cleaner (when the vacuum cleaner is running!). Too big. Too open. Similarly for the large PT mouthpieces. I manfully used a PT 89 for a year, but then gave it up for something I could actually control fairly well.

[iiipopes]

Yeah, but I've never been able to use a 120S. It's one mouthpiece that just seems to suck the life out of me. You can get great "organ like" tone, but for me it's like trying to blow into the vacuum side of a vacuum cleaner (when the vacuum cleaner is running!). Too big. Too open Similarly for the large PT mouthpieces. I manfully used a PT 89 for a year, but then gave it up for something I could actually control fairly well.

It is interesting to me that the Conn 120S seems to take more air for you. It actually has a moderate throat, as tuba mouthpieces go. It is the standard mouthpiece that most high school tuba players use. It is plausible that due to the deep funnel, it provides no "compression feedback" that other mouthpieces do, which helps a player regulate air.

Remember, a mouthpiece is like an automobile carburetor functioning according to Bernoulli's principle, so if the geometry of the cup, throat and backbore, as a system, do not match the physicality of the player's vital capacity and delivery, then it will either feel like everything is so stuffy it's like blowing through a soda straw (like it did with me trying to play a piccolo trumpet), or on the other extreme, like heaving into a barrel.

It truly is like an automobile carburetor. If the carburetor is too large for the manifold, then the proper velocity of air/fuel mixture can't develop, and there is uneven idle and sluggish response, all or nothing. Likewise, if the carburetor is too small for the manifold, then at higher rpm there will be mixture and delivery issues that prevent the motor from developing maximum horsepower.

If it feels like the mouthpiece is taking all the air, then the two options are to narrow the throat and backbore, or decrease the depth of cup. But the 120S is already a moderate throat and backbore for a tuba mouthpiece. So to go anything tighter in the throat than an "P" drill bit, or .323, impedes response. Therefore, on Tuba, the option is to go to the Conn 7, with its slightly shallower cup, which provides the compression feedback to the player to help manage air, or a mouthpiece that has a more rounded cup, like the Kanstul, Blessing, or Kelly versions of the 18 (or other mouthpieces of similar construction, as my Sellsmanberger Imperial model with a modified rim spacer), as the Bach has a larger throat, defeating the purpose. If the person goes to the tighter throat, then that can impede air flow and the lower register loses response, and the upper register goes flat.

These aspects should be studied with regard to euph and bari mouthpieces. Most everything has been about the euph getting bigger and broader over the last few decades, which like the muscle cars of the '60's and '70's, got larger engines and larger carburetors, a quicker quarter-mile, but all at the expense of handling and efficiency.

In short, everyone is building euphs for Mr. Werden, Mr. Mead, and everyone else who is a professional who has the air to give them, and nobody is building euphs and mouthpieces for the high-amateur, community band, student, and occasional player, as the older Imps and New Standards were. And mouthpieces must be redesigned accordingly in the next generation as well so there does not develop a dichotomy between student and proficient player, and the inherent and inevitable discontinuity of transition between the "student" instrument and the "professional" mouthpieces and instruments.

[KKORO]

I wanted to give an update on my Tuba experience.

As last posted, I had decided the Tuba was not for me. I was either going to sell it, or keep it to loan to folks who needed a Tuba to play in the Brass Ensemble I've started at church. I was getting pretty frustrated as I just didn't seem to be able to play in tune or even play the right note even though I was using the proper fingering. Then, it occurred to me it may be the horn and not me. I took it to the local tech and, sure enough, the valves were "way out of alignment." A mere $45 later I had a new horn. All of a sudden, I'm a Tuba player.

This past Sunday, my 8 person Brass Ensemble played an arrangement of mine. It was a 4 part brass arrangement of one of my favorite Renaissance pieces "O Magnum Mysterium." I have a very accomplish French Horn player (decades in the Houston Symphony) in my choir who suffers from focal dystonia. We had discussed the possibility that a larger mouthpiece might help him play again. So, he played my King 2280 euphonium that Sunday. I was left to play the Tuba part. The piece is one of those slow counterpoint pieces that starts one part at a time. After 9 measures of 3 part counterpoint in the top 3 voices, we Tuba players came in. What a glorious sound the ensemble had with the added foundation of the Tubas.

Bottom line, I'm now a Euphonium/Tuba player and enjoying both.

As far as selling my 3/4 King Tuba -- yup, I'm going to do that. That's because I've got the itch to buy a larger/better Tuba.

Thanks all for your help.

KKORO

[davewerden]

I'm glad to hear this all worked out, and for only a few dozen dollars! I really enjoy my occasional encounters with my tuba and it's a wonderful double for euphonium. Besides, it's just plain fun to plant the bottom of the chord/ensemble.

[KKORO]

Thanks Dave! I'll be playing the Tuba often as we don't have a Tuba player for the ensemble. For this last service I had a friend who is an accomplished tubist play with me. But normally, I'll be it as we have others covering the Euphonium part.

KKORO

[Koukalaka]

Glad to hear it's working out for you! I've been having a blast playing both my euphonium and tuba since purchasing the tuba about five months ago. My lower euphonium range has improved quite a bit after playing the tuba, and when I've played the euphonium more, it seems to help my upper tuba range.

I also have a compensating three-valve baritone horn that I play sometimes for a nice change of pace (much easier than the euphonium, but a different sound) and I just added an Eb alto horn (what they call a "tenor horn" in the UK), which is a lot of fun. This may be a setup for a "jack of all trades, master of none" situation, but if I could ever find a British-style brass band to play in, it would make me pretty versatile.

[KKORO]

Glad to hear it's working out for you! I've been having a blast playing both my euphonium and tuba since purchasing the tuba about five months ago. My lower euphonium range has improved quite a bit after playing the tuba, and when I've played the euphonium more, it seems to help my upper tuba range.

I also have a compensating three-valve baritone horn that I play sometimes for a nice change of pace (much easier than the euphonium, but a different sound) and I just added an Eb alto horn (what they call a "tenor horn" in the UK), which is a lot of fun. This may be a setup for a "jack of all trades, master of none" situation, but if I could ever find a British-style brass band to play in, it would make me pretty versatile.

I seem to be taking the same path. I've ordered a British style baritone that should be here sometime in June or July. That will give me a tuba, euphonium and baritone. I've wondered about "tenor horn." Can you tell me what size mouthpiece they use. I'm assuming it'll be quite a bit smaller.

John

[Koukalaka]

I seem to be taking the same path. I've ordered a British style baritone that should be here sometime in June or July. That will give me a tuba, euphonium and baritone. I've wondered about "tenor horn." Can you tell me what size mouthpiece they use. I'm assuming it'll be quite a bit smaller.

John

The alto/tenor horn mouthpiece is quite a bit smaller than that for the euphonium/baritone. At first glance it almost looks as small as a trumpet mouthpiece, but it's a lot deeper and a little wider. I struggle with the trumpet despite having played it as a kid, but the alto horn seems to be a relatively easy transition from euphonium.

Call me crazy, but I bought my alto horn for $319 from China on eBay. It has a rose brass bell and is really quite pretty, so I figured, why not, I'll take a chance. It plays quite beautifully for that price, better than an antique alto horn I used to have.