How can I know how loud I'm playing?

[sirendude2015]

So I'm doubling on Euph and Trombone in a local brass band, and I find that it's more difficult to create dynamic contrast on the Euph than the Trombone- I.E. My pianissimo's don't sound very quiet and my fortissimo's don't sound very loud, from my perspective. Mine is the European oval-shaped kind of Euph, if that matters. The Trombone's tone color changes as dynamics change, which makes it easier for me (since dynamic levels have a certain tone quality I can listen for). I do know that the conical bore profile of a Euph diminishes tonal change with dynamic change, but with that, I have no clue how to tell how loud or soft I sound to an audience, or how I'm blending with the rest of the ensemble. To my ears, it's all one constant volume, even as I vary the airflow the way I do to change dynamics on trombone. Is this the nature of the instrument, or is my technique flawed? Any tips, tricks, suggestions?

I only picked up doubling a couple months ago, so forgive me if I'm making an amateur mistake.

[davewerden]

Your questions reminds me of a conversation I had with Brian Bowman a loooong time ago. He commented that on euphonium it is difficult to play really softly AND difficult to play really loudly. He played trombone as well, as did I, and we both found the difference pretty dramatic.

Having said that... I can only speak to the issue of playing a standard compensating euphonium or an American-style small euphonium. I've done a lot of both. I have only toyed with a horn like yours. But there are some common elements.

Mouthpiece can make a difference. What are you using? On a smaller mouthpiece it is easier to get the "edgy" kind of loud sound, which may cut through a band better in many cases. But then it is harder to get the quality sound we should be seeking.

As you get louder, try to keep the airflow unrestricted and open. If you restrict it you can get more edge, but most times you want bigness more than edge.

For soft playing, that is mostly practice. Do scales, slurred and tongued, and keep playing softer and softer in a given practice session until some notes don't speak. Then work at that volume for a little while to see if you can bring the missing notes dependably into the scale. Then at some point in your daily practice, also practice doing some soft entries, which is a slightly different skill/technique. It is tougher than on trombone, but it can be done. The euphonium sound is bigger, so I think the actual sound output could be made softer on trombone than euphonium for any given player's ability.

[Msan1313]

I've thought of this alot because I encountered this problem before. The way I went about it to determine my dynamics was I worked with my lessons teacher and placed my phone with a sound meter on, and together we decided certain decibel values to represent certain dynamics. For the next few months I would practice with the app active in the same practice room at the same distance and now I have a decent perception of what each dynamic is.

Here's the problem with what I did, perception is easy to change, if you say move your device farther away you should have to play louder to get the same value, if you were in a bigger room you might need to play louder just to get an accurate read. And the major problem, dynamics are realtive, if you aren't achieving a contrast at all you would just need to explore on a personal level with a director to find maybe an individual issue.

[howrdhodge]

I understand where you're coming from completely. I'm primarily a trombonist as well, and this is my first extended run of playing euphonium on a regular basis for the last year. In ensembles, I simply could not hear myself at first. The source of the sound was in a different location, and often didn't have a reflective surface upon which to bounce back and provide feedback. But, over time I've adjusted to the differences, and particularly when I'm the only euph, I now feel pretty good about balance and feedback. My struggle now is playing with other euphoniums and trying to get the proper blend and pitch, particularly if the player is on my right. I've learned how to gauge my own playing, but really struggle in hearing a player whose bell is also pointed away from my ears.

[adrian_quince]

My experience switching to euphonium from trumpet is similar to yours coming from trombone. It's especially tough for me to judge my volume on an oval euphonium. I think it's both due to where the bell is pointing and the distance from the bell to the ear.

The best solution would be another set of ears to help you calibrate how you hear yourself. Marco's app solution is a really cool way to do this! Another approach to take is to see if you can position yourself in your practice space to get more sound from the horn. Personally, I have a corner that I'll point in to at times to get more of my sound coming back to me.

When it comes to playing in an ensemble, the best thing to do here is discuss this with the director and have them listening for you as the ensemble is playing. I did this during my euphonium switch and it really surprised me to learn that I was almost always too quiet! Never a problem I had on trumpet, believe me.

[sirendude2015]

Having said that... I can only speak to the issue of playing a standard compensating euphonium or an American-style small euphonium. I've done a lot of both. I have only toyed with a horn like yours. But there are some common elements.

Mouthpiece can make a difference. What are you using? On a smaller mouthpiece it is easier to get the "edgy" kind of loud sound, which may cut through a band better in many cases. But then it is harder to get the quality sound we should be seeking.

The mouthpiece I use in my oval-shaped horn is a small shank Vincent Bach 6.5AL with duct tape wrapped around the shank to make the mouthpiece fit better. While I understand that's not exactly ideal, I don't have money to blow on a medium-shank mouthpiece and the duct tape doesn't leak. I've been looking at a Kelly 51D for a while, but a new development has unfolded that might eliminate that necessity. If I had known that doubling was in my future when I was browsing Ebay for a euph, I would've bought a more traditional horn.

Speaking of traditional horns, the director of the brass band approached me and said that he owns a Euphonium made by Andreas Eastman. He said it has 4 piston valves and is in much nicer shape than my horn, being only a few years old. His wife had played it for a few months, then put it away. If storage has been kind to the valves and slides, he says he'll let me use it. That, I assume, will change a lot of aspects going from an oval horn (with a 0.551" bore, 3 rotors, and a 9.25 inch bell) to an upright (with a 0.571" bore, 4 pistons, and an 11" bell). I've found switching from a small bore to a large bore trombone that they respond very differently to dynamic efforts. The larger bore feels more open, which lets me play both louder and quieter, because I don't have to overcome the resistance of the horn. I can color the tone more easily on a large bore too, because the wider air column has more "give." My euph's bore, from what I understand, is quite small and the horn has a notable amount of resistance (more than any trombone I've ever played). If larger bore size has reduced stuffiness, then playing the Eastman will allow me to expand my dynamic range and color the tone a little bit more, which might solve my problem.

Thanks for all of the ideas everyone! At the rehearsal last night, the director told me on multiple occasions that I can bring certain soloistic parts out a little more. He seems to like the volume at which I can hear my sound bounce off the dampened 16-foot ceiling and reverberate in the room just a little bit, over the sound of the French Horns. So now at least I have a predefined notion of what a good Forte is. I don't have a phone capable of running the decibel meter app (mine has a sliding keyboard and software akin to a flip phone), but maybe I could have my girlfriend be a dynamics judge and allow me to define preset volumes in my head.