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Thread: Switching to Tuba - advice needed!

  1. #1

    Switching to Tuba - advice needed!

    Hello everyone!

    After c. 25 years as a Euph player I've decided I'm going to switch to Eb Tuba so I can play with my local orchestra. I'm about 6 months in and on the whole I'm adjusting ok, but I could do with some advice on a couple of areas:-

    Controlling / laying down the volume

    I find the tuba very different when it comes to loud, full playing. I'm challenged centering notes in the upper end of the dynamic range (not intentionally over blowing). Is this just a case of building up my lip strength further or are there any other things I should target?

    Pedals

    On a Euph, pedals were second nature (I use a lot of top lip on an SM4 mouthpiece and it works for me), but tuba is kicking my proverbial here. Specifically the non-open pedals (pedal D / C# when thinking in Eb Treble Clef). Should I be trying to work up a different sort of lip technique?

    I play on a Wessex Eb with a DW Heritage (3) mouthpiece. A couple of pro players have played my tuba without complaint, so I'm confident the problem is the nut behind the mouthpiece (i.e. me!). Any advice or suggestions would be very much appreciated!

    Thanks!

  2. #2
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    Off your topic just a bit, but am curious to know why you would select an Eb tuba to play with your local orchestra as opposed to the much more traditional CC or BBb tuba.

    By the way, I am a euphonium player, but I play bass trombone in my local orchestra. I, too, have some difficulty in playing the pedal notes on the bass trombone as opposed to playing them on my euphonium, which I find rather easy (after years of playing). I find that I have to really get my chops in shape when playing bass trombone with the much bigger mouthpiece. I work a lot on low notes and pedal notes just playing long tones. I have to warm up longer to get the real low notes speaking. I do things like play a low Bb, then drop an octave to pedal Bb. I go down chromatically in octaves, Bb, A, Ab, etc. You have to have excellent breath support. Playing low notes like that, especially on a trombone which has little resistance, makes your breath run out very quick. Same with a tuba. As for direction of chops or which lip (upper or lower) gets more involved, I tried various approaches by moving more of the upper or lower lip in or out and by "aiming" my wind either higher or lower in the mouthpiece. Try experimenting with that to see where it gives the best results. In the end, it just takes time, figuring out the proper lip and embouchure placement, breath support, etc. Also, be well hydrated. If you are dry, it is really, really hard to play low and have "loose" chops that vibrate easily. I always, always have a water bottle with me and drink from it frequently.

    Good luck with the transition. Keep your euphonium close by. You would never want to stop playing the best instrument ever invented!!!
    John Morgan
    The U.S. Army Band (Pershing's Own) 1971-1976
    Adams E3 Custom Series Euphonium, 1956 B&H Imperial Euphonium,
    1973 F. E. Olds & Son Studio Model T-31 Baritone
    Adams TB1 Tenor Trombone, Yamaha YBL-822G Bass Trombone
    Year Round Except Summer:
    Kingdom of the Sun (KOS) Concert Band, Ocala, FL (Euphonium)
    KOS Brass Quintet (Trombone, Euphonium)
    Summer Only:
    Rapid City Municipal Band, Rapid City, SD (Euphonium)
    Rapid City New Horizons Band (Euphonium)

  3. #3
    Join Date
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    Well, it sounds like you're playing on the same rig I am (except I'm using the Wick Classic 3XL). Mostly I'd say that your only problem is practice and experience. 6 months isn't all that much time on the instrument. I find the embouchures on euph/tuba/trombone to be VERY different. Tuba permits you a lot more latitude (and more latitude for a sloppy embouchure in mid and low register). I suspect that you're still a bit too tight with the embouchure in the mid and low range. And maybe your mouth placement on the mouthpiece is not quite right. Experiment with it, and, of course ....... long tones. Work on the mid stuff first, then the low range, then worry about the high -- which you already should have covered since you're coming from euph. Do NOT use too much pressure on the mouthpiece. The embouchure needs to be more relaxed than you're used to.

    Pedals: So what do you mean by this? The first genuine pedal on that horn is the open Eb that is the SECOND Eb below the bass staff (5th space below the staff). You almost NEVER need those notes. Honestly, the true pedal C is about the low limit of my range. So I'm assuming you really mean the octave above that (i.e., in the first octave below the bass staff)? Anyhow, using TOP lip for low range is not something that I think a lot of (any) tuba players do. Absolutely can't make it work for me. Try moving the mouthpiece down and using mostly bottom lip for the low range.

    In terms of the mouthpiece, I strongly recommend you don't mess around with alternatives until you've got more time in, and better results. I spent a HUGE amount of time experimenting with all kinds of mouthpiece for this horn, and the Wick 3L mouthpieces are in my experience the best. They were really designed for this instrument. At some point you might want to try the 3XL. The rim is more comfortable and it gives the impression of being a bit wider (but just because of the rim contour). It takes a little more control in places, but I like it a lot better than the 3L, especially in the low range. However, what turns out to be the best mouthpiece FOR YOU depends a lot ON YOU -- and in particular on the size/shape of your mouth, lips, etc. But you should be able to get all the range you need for your local orchestra. That being said, it is now pretty unusual to see an Eb tuba in an ORCHESTRA. The Brits have played them in orchestras for a long time, but I think they're giving way to more CC horns. Even Fletcher tended to use a CC for certain orchestral work.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
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    Also, why are you thinking in "Eb Treble Clef" if you're playing in an orchestra? Just curious. Surely the orchestral parts aren't in treble clef????
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by ghmerrill View Post
    Also, why are you thinking in "Eb Treble Clef" if you're playing in an orchestra? Just curious. Surely the orchestral parts aren't in treble clef????
    I learned to play in Bb treble clef on cornet, then switched to euphonium. Whether I'm reading bass or treble, or transposing from a C piano part, my brain sees an open note as a C, not a Bb. That's how I think.

    So when I switched to Eb tuba, I could read the music exactly like Bb treble clef, just having to change accidentals for a couple of notes. So when the OP says D/C#, he is referring to the notes played 134 and 1234, just above the actual pedal range of the instrument.
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    Alliance Mouthpiece (DC3)
    YouTube: dwerden
    Facebook: davewerden
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  6. #6
    Thanks for the reply John... much appreciated, I'll give it a go!

    To answer your question, I also play in a brass band where they have Eb and Bb Tubas (both treble clef over here)... on the lighter side, I'm restricted by the size of my car!!

  7. #7
    Join Date
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    I guess if my brain worked that way, I'd see an "open note" as a C# since I originally learned to play on saxophone (and later flute).

    I've taken the approach of language (instrument) "neutrality", and rather than translating to a kind of "base" language (instrument), just shift from one to another. Like when I read something in a foreign language, I don't go through a separate translation step.

    Whatever works ... It's always seemed to me that the whole idea of "transposing instruments" was kind of nutty -- even though I played only transposing instruments for about 15 years. It's like, "So when I play a C on an alto saxophone and a C on a tenor saxophone, they're not the same note, and in fact neither one of them is a C?" Yeah, that makes a huge amount of sense. It's like "total pitch relativism". It's like "C for you but not for me", "moral for you, but not for me" or "true for you, but not for me". Ultimately it leads to chaos and the disintegration of society as we know it.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  8. #8
    Thanks for the advice Gary and I hope you are enjoying your Wessex as much as I do mine... yep, I'm a brit too, so Eb is pretty well established here. The reason for the treble clef thinking is that our brass bands (where I've played most of my time) have tuba parts in treble clef (Eb).... you're right, the orchestra parts are in bass clef (C) which I've only started to attempt recently. It's when you get few ledgers below the bass clef staff and downward (example attached) I run into difficulty. Click image for larger version. 

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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by davewerden View Post
    I learned to play in Bb treble clef on cornet, then switched to euphonium. Whether I'm reading bass or treble, or transposing from a C piano part, my brain sees an open note as a C, not a Bb. That's how I think.

    So when I switched to Eb tuba, I could read the music exactly like Bb treble clef, just having to change accidentals for a couple of notes. So when the OP says D/C#, he is referring to the notes played 134 and 1234, just above the actual pedal range of the instrument.
    Thanks for clarifying Dave!

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
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    Central North Carolina
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    Reading ledger lines is a pain -- I'll agree with that. It's interesting that trombonists learn to read multiple clefs (largely in order to avoid ledger lines), and trombone music is often written in an "appropriate" clef. But tuba music is tuba music (modulo British brass band treble clef stuff). Objectively, it seems even more appropriate for tuba music to make use of multiple clefs. But it doesn't.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

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