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Thread: Euphonium Player on Bass Trombone needs help

  1. #1
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    Euphonium Player on Bass Trombone needs help

    I just received the music for an orchestra that is performing one time at a church function. I am playing third (bass) trombone. I've played bass trombone in brass ensemble and community band but never in orchestra. Maybe some of you who double on Bass Trombone and Euphonium (like myself) can answer my question about the music score. The third trombone and bass trombone parts contain a few notes written below the pedal B flat. Are they treated as pedal tones? The method book I have shows the positions (G flat second valve) of the notes so am I correct that the approach should be as a pedal tone? Thanks for any help to a frustrated Euphonium player.

  2. #2
    There is some disagreement on the forum about what a pedal tone is, but I personally call the Bb you mention and everything below it "pedal tones." Use the same slide position you use for the next higher octave and learn to play the notes with quality. I would get my best sound on the Bb, and then smear down to A with the slide, trying to keep the same tone quality. If that works, go from Bb to Ab. And so on.
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
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  3. #3
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    Well howdy-doody, BDesinger!

    I am a life long euphonium player and I also play bass trombone in the Black Hills Symphony Orchestra, so perhaps I can answer your question. On occasion I get symphony parts that have written notes below pedal Bb. You play those as written. You say you are seeing those notes on the "music score". Sometimes the score and your actual individual part may vary. Go by what it shows on your actual part. I play on a Yamaha 822G bass trombone which is a dependent system in that the second valve (D) has no effect unless the first valve (F) is depressed. I would, however, play a Gb below pedal Bb without using either valve. Simply play that Gb in 5th position. Practice by playing the pedal Bb, then move the slide out through the positions to get to 5th.

    Edit: Note I play a "dependent" bass trombone where the 2nd valve does nothing unless the 1st valve (F) is pressed. On an independent horn, you can use the 1st and 2nd valve independently (press one or press the other). Pressing the 1st valve alone provides an F fundamental. Pressing the 2nd valve alone provides a Gb fundamental. Pressing them both together provides a D like you get on a dependent horn when pressing both valves. So, you can play a pedal Gb by using the 2nd valve on an independent bass trombone. You cannot play a Gb with any use of the valves on a dependent bass trombone, you have to play it in 5th position with no valves engaged. I would still play the Gb in 5th position on an independent horn if there was no speed or facility issue involved.

    Here is a link to Douglas Yeo's web site (former bass trombonist with the Boston Symphony Orchestra): http://www.yeodoug.com/resources/faq...lidechart.html

    There are a few good trombone position charts on that page for bass trombone (dependent). My advice would probably always be to not use the valves unless necessary (to play a note you cannot without a valve or to facilitate playing a passage where using the valve(s) is easier than moving the slide without the use of the valve(s)). I do use the F valve to play low C (below tuning Bb) and B natural right next to it most of the time, and even when there is no real reason to for speed purposes, so I just contradicted myself. But generally, as you add valves, you invariably add some amount of stuffiness.
    Last edited by John Morgan; 09-18-2016 at 01:22 PM.
    John Morgan
    The U.S. Army Band (Pershing's Own) 1971-1976
    Adams E3 Custom Series Euphonium, 1956 B&H Imperial Euphonium,
    1973 F. E. Olds & Son Studio Model T-31 Baritone
    Adams TB1 Tenor Trombone, Yamaha YBL-822G Bass Trombone
    Year Round Except Summer:
    Kingdom of the Sun (KOS) Concert Band, Ocala, FL (Euphonium)
    KOS Brass Quintet (Trombone, Euphonium)
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    Rapid City Municipal Band, Rapid City, SD (Euphonium)
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  4. #4
    Depending on your equipment, it's going to be a 5th position for Gb (no valve). Try not to lip it into tune, use your slide. Get out the Rochut book 1, and start playing them down an octave, using only one valve.

  5. #5
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    What John said: play it on the open horn. It will speak more easily and with better timbre than on the Gb valve.

    I've been teaching myself bass trombone for about a year and currently am what I call "not awful" at it. I concur with John in his approach. There are two schools of thought on the valves: (1) Use them only when you must, and (2) Since you have them, use them. I started out pretty much with (2), but have now switched to a kind of intermediate approach which is essentially what John describes. Also, since I have independent valves, there are times when the Gb in the staff in 1st position (well, flat first, or what Aharoni calls the 2nd valve first position) is just real handy.

    I find that I am playing more notes without the valves (particularly sixth and seventh position notes), both because it is better slide technique in a lot of places and because it speaks more easily and sounds better. And I am using the F valve much more than the Gb valve, and use the double valves only for a very few (and infrequently encountered) notes.

    I harbor a somewhat odd belief that an independent double-valve bass trombone would be better to set up with Gb as the first (and more frequently used) valve, and F as the second. I've thought about doing that to my horn, but it requires some degree of effort. And an additional downside is that it requires the development of habits that are incompatible with all "normal" trombones with F/Gb or F/D attachments. Still, it keeps attracting me.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
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    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  6. #6
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    Thanks for the advice. I have an independent Conn bass trombone. The only note on my part that goes below the B flat pedal is A and I use second position for that. There is a lot of notation above that in the lower range which I need to decide which valve or valves are best. Fortunately the music is not fast. It's a challenge for a self taught player but the trombone position charts have been a great help and John I will go to that site. I agree that the pedal tones are much clearer and in tune using the slide.

  7. #7
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    As a "self-taught" trombonist (well, actually, totally self-taught brass player), one of the most valuable resources I've found for bass trombone has been the set of slide position charts in Aharoni's book New Method for the Modern Bass Trombone. I confess that I haven't used the exercises in the book much, but I find that Aharoni's approachs to characterizing positions, providing notation to indicate the different positions, and the annotation position charts are invaluable. It simplifies thinking about what/where the positions are and provides excellent guidance for tuning. Since Aharoni play a Bb/F/Eb dependent horn (I'm pretty sure he still does), there isn't a concentration in the book on the Gb/D independent set-up. But there's enough (especially in the case of D).

    Unfortunately, the book is quite difficult to get (small Israeli publisher), but you might find one in a music library at a university.

    The VERY BEST books for working on bass trombone technique and range that I've found are Tommy Pederson's books (Alfred/Belwin Mills publisher) Elementary Etudes for Bass Trombone and Advanced Etudes for Bass Trombone (the intermediate book is highly prized and out of print!). There's almost nothing in terms of "instruction" or technique, but the exercises are GREAT. I work on the elementary book and may eventually get to the advanced one if I live long enough. A lot of the exercises aren't really difficult to PLAY. But if you can play them WELL, then you're a good bass trombonist. If you work on exercises like this (and play enough in band), you'll be forced into using the "correct" positions for the various passages. Either that or you'll give up and toss your horn into a pond.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  8. #8
    One thing I've found to be very helpful in playing bass trombone is learning some of the Bordogni exercises (the ones in the Rochut melodious etudes book) both as written and down an octave. It really forces you find the best positions-both for convenience in moving the slide and intonation.

    Pedal notes on trombone are, in my opinion, best done open (no valves), perhaps with the exception of pedal F and E (F1 and E1), which I normally do with the F valve. Of course, every player will have their preferences with this.
    University of Miami - BM Euphonium Performance '21
    Indiana University - MM Bass Trombone and Euphonium Performance '24



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  9. #9
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    Jan 2015
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    Thanks all for the terrific advise. Got all the valve and positions worked out. Sound seems better with a smaller mouthpiece.
    B&S 3046 Baritone/Euphonium
    Wessex Festivo
    B&S PT37-S
    Schilke ST20 Tenor Trombone
    Jupiter XO Double valve bass trombone

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