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Thread: Have you ever traded a horn?

  1. #1

    Have you ever traded a horn?

    Hello Everyone,

    I don't think my wife is too happy that I have an unused, second euphonium sitting in my practice room. It's my Kanstul975 that got replaced by my Adams E1. I would like to start teaching my youngest (10 yrs old) to play, but the 975 is quite a bit of horn. I was thinking about offering it up for trade for a Yamaha 321 of similar condition.

    Question, do any of you have experience in trading horns and do you have advice or best practices ideas? Obviously, lots of ways for something like this to go wrong, so your thoughts would be appreciated (even the 'don't do it' ones).

    Chris
    Chris Bunker
    Adams E1, Wick 4AL

  2. No significant difference in weight or size. Keep the Kanstul. He will grow into it.

  3. #3
    Well, I have a brand new Adams E3, a Wessex Dolce that I bought to carry me from when I sold my Miraphone M5050 until I received the Adams (about 5-6 months), and have also just recently acquired a 1956 B&H Imperial euphonium. And I did all this with absolutely no little critters running around the house, besides the occasional bugs that get in.

    As for your little critter, it possibly might depend on how serious he/she is or will become about playing euphonium. If you have any insights into his/her future and see a serious student on the horizon, I would be inclined to keep the Kanstul. I was 10-11 when in 6th grade and had already been playing for a year. By 8th grade (12-13), I was working on Carnival of Venice on baritone, but looking back, I sure wish I had a good euphonium then. I was very serious about learning to play, and that I think is the key here. I don't do any teaching of youngsters, so I am probably not the best judge of this, but I think I would hang on to the Kanstul, let your child try it for a while, and see how it goes. If it is clearly too much horn for the urchin or the interest isn't there, then maybe look to change it out or just sell it. But do, of course, teach the little one how to properly take care of the Kanstul and avoid getting it roughed up if you do in fact end up selling/trading it.

    If you do decide to change out the Kanstul for something else, I would recommend just selling the Kanstul, then look for a replacement horn to buy. The Kanstul for a Yamaha 321 seems to be a bad deal for you, not the 321 owner. A new Kanstul 975 is almost 3 times the cost of a new Yamaha 321. That is why I recommend selling the Kanstul, getting another horn, and keeping any left over you might have.
    John Morgan
    The U.S. Army Band (Pershing's Own) 1971-1976
    Adams E3 Custom Series Euphonium, Wessex EP-100 Dolce Euphonium, 1956 B&H Imperial Euphonium
    Adams TB1 Tenor Trombone, Yamaha YBL-822G Bass Trombone
    Wessex TE-360 Bombino Eb Tuba
    Rapid City New Horizons & Municipal Bands (Euphonium)
    Black Hills Symphony Orchestra (Bass Trombone), Powder River Symphony, Gillette, WY (Tenor Trombone)
    Black Hills Brass Quintet (Tuba)

  4. With due respect to the above, I absolutely disagree. My comment would be is that if you do sell the Kanstul now and purchase an inferior horn, any thoughts of being serious about playing will be dashed when the son asks why the better horn was sold and he has a lesser horn, instead of having "one like Dad's." If down the road some years from now - not just the first six months to a year of school band - it becomes obvious that playing the euph is not what the son wants to do, the Kanstul can be sold then with his knowledge and approval. These comments are from experiences of both mine and my friends. My friend's parent's horns were sold, and the children lost interest and never pursued music, even as a hobby. Mom kept my Dad's horn after his death, and I still play in community band all these decades later, even though Dad's horn was stolen from me when I was playing it in college.

  5. #5
    Uh, I think I suggested keeping it and letting the little one play on it...my definition of "for a while" would probably be until 8th grade or so, which would be long enough to show interest and seriousness...not quite sure what you are absolutely disagreeing with...
    John Morgan
    The U.S. Army Band (Pershing's Own) 1971-1976
    Adams E3 Custom Series Euphonium, Wessex EP-100 Dolce Euphonium, 1956 B&H Imperial Euphonium
    Adams TB1 Tenor Trombone, Yamaha YBL-822G Bass Trombone
    Wessex TE-360 Bombino Eb Tuba
    Rapid City New Horizons & Municipal Bands (Euphonium)
    Black Hills Symphony Orchestra (Bass Trombone), Powder River Symphony, Gillette, WY (Tenor Trombone)
    Black Hills Brass Quintet (Tuba)

  6. The context of "for a while" seemed to indicate months, not years. If you mean several years, then yes, I agree with that.

  7. #7
    Well, let me thank you both for your input. I am not sure I agree that the yep and the ks are similar, everything I have read has suggested that the yep is a better youth horn than any pro level 3+1 compensating horn. I am assuming that it is due to the skill it takes to play it and the ergonomics. But, I do agree with you both that long-term the pro horn makes more sense.

    My thinking behind trading to a yep is to support growth and enjoyment through positive achievement. I thought such achievement would come easier on a yep compared to the ks. Maybe I am wrong on that, we can give it a try.

    With respect to my boy being mad-I told him the day he is better than me is the day he can have my horn; that made him really happy.

    On a different note; John, as a civilian employee of the Air Force, I thank you for your service. I showed my son your signature box and said 'if you play euphonium you can be a helicopter pilot!'

    Regards

    Chris
    Chris Bunker
    Adams E1, Wick 4AL

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by CEBunker View Post
    My thinking behind trading to a yep is to support growth and enjoyment through positive achievement. I thought such achievement would come easier on a yep compared to the ks. Maybe I am wrong on that, we can give it a try.
    I think your instincts about this are sound. Any thoughts about a 10-year old using a pro level horn and "growing into it" have to be regarded -- at best -- as highly speculative and based on a number of assumptions that may turn out to be false in a few months, or a year, or a couple of years. The concern in such cases seems to be to (in some sense) "preserve the horn" and its use in your family, and ensure that your young student will have a "quality" instrument in his hands when he gets to the point that he's capable of using it and appreciating the difference. This, I think (having raised three children and ensured their educations in instrumental music), is fanciful. It's an adult's view of things (and in fact an adult's view of the best case, and an adult's view of what he hopes the future will bring).

    Sure ... if you want to give a kid a pro level horn, and if you have one around that otherwise isn't being used, and if there may be some convenience to that, then give the kid that horn. But then DON'T wring your hands about how well it's taken care of, how carefully it's treated, whether the kid truly appreciates what he has, etc. It's a kid. He's just learning to play. If you're not prepared to see it dented and subjected to some careless treatment -- and to not care about this -- then do both you and kid a favor and provide him with a less expenseive, perhaps more useable, and more robust instrument. He doesn't NEED a pro horn. What does he gain from it? Please recall (or be informed, if you don't recall) that when Doug Elliott auditioned for the Airmen of Note, he did so (and qualified) on a student Yamaha YSL 354 student trombone. There are a number of other stories similar to this.

    I'll grant you that many years ago I handed a Fox bassoon to a 14-year old and said "take good care of it". He did. But there aren't really that many alternatives (certainly weren't at that point in time) in the realm of bassoons. And 14 is a LOT older in terms of maturity than 10. If your son was 14, or 15, or 16, I think the choice here might well be different. But I believe that your original thinking about this was on the right track.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (Denis Wick 3XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba, modified Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K9/112 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by CEBunker View Post
    ...On a different note; John, as a civilian employee of the Air Force, I thank you for your service. I showed my son your signature box and said 'if you play euphonium you can be a helicopter pilot!'

    Regards

    Chris
    Well, I can't say for sure that if you decide to be a euphonium player that you have a direct path to being a helicopter pilot, but, if you have dreams and goals and initiative and desire and determination, then pretty much anything is possible. Thanks, Chris, for the kind words about my service, and thank you for yours as well. I married a Department of the Army civilian employee (met her at the bowling alley on a mixed league team of active duty types - me - and Department of the Army civilian types - her - how utterly romantic!).

    You and Gary make good points. I am probably an anomaly (my wife would say weird). I liked old folks music when I was a youngster. I took impeccable care of my things (instruments included) at the ripe old age of 9 onward. I think (modesty aside) that I outplayed my very, very student baritone in short order when I switched to it from trumpet after 7th grade. I would have loved to have had the best euphonium I could get at that point in my musical life. My Dad was stationed at the Pentagon, and he and Mom took us kids to downtown D.C. on a regular basis to hear the main service bands play, and I saw some wonderful euphonium players performing the old war horse solos (I was smitten). I WANTED one of those horns. I suppose a typical, normal, happy, regular 10 year old may not appreciate your Kanstul or other top end euphoniums, but I know I would have if I had had the chance to own and play one. Guess you, Chris, will have to decide if it makes sense to "downsize" for a year or two or three, then move up, or just let him start off with it. Does he now have a group (school band) to play in, or if not, when will he?
    John Morgan
    The U.S. Army Band (Pershing's Own) 1971-1976
    Adams E3 Custom Series Euphonium, Wessex EP-100 Dolce Euphonium, 1956 B&H Imperial Euphonium
    Adams TB1 Tenor Trombone, Yamaha YBL-822G Bass Trombone
    Wessex TE-360 Bombino Eb Tuba
    Rapid City New Horizons & Municipal Bands (Euphonium)
    Black Hills Symphony Orchestra (Bass Trombone), Powder River Symphony, Gillette, WY (Tenor Trombone)
    Black Hills Brass Quintet (Tuba)

  10. #10
    Its the corollary to what Dave has said about the psychology and benefits of an amateur upgrading to a better horn. If it makes you 'happier' and increases your enjoyment, then it is 'worth' the cost. The same can be said for downgrading your horn; if it increases your happiness and satisfaction, then it certainly can be worth the cost. Of course I dont recommend giving up a family gem that holds memories and feelings; that's a tuff thing to do.

    The driver for my action is that Eddie's school is starting a stings program (4th grade). A wind band program wont be available until 6th grade. My step son, now 18, who by law should have played trombone (he is 6' tall) chose cello! My wife is excited by the prospect of reusing the cello and avoiding any commitments to attend Friday night football games to watch the marching band. I need to head that off fast.

    Chris
    Chris Bunker
    Adams E1, Wick 4AL

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