GENERAL: What should be sent to a repair shop vs. DIY

[ackmondual]

I purchased a used Yamaha yep321 off Ebay that I finally received.

The horn plays surprisingly well (more so on myself since I haven't played for in over a month). However, I have the following issues, and am wondering what should be sent to a repair shop, vs. what I can do on my own

MAIN CONCERNS
3rd and 4th valves won't open
Can't oil the valves unless I drip them through from the bottom holes
I read that wrapping the caps with a hand towel, and using pliers to loosen it can work



LESSER CONCERNS
2nd valve and 4th valve tuning slides won't budge

turning the finger buttons also turns the stem that it connects to
So for 3 of the valves, turning the finger button enough times removes the finger button AND the stem, like they're one unit.

bottom caps of the valves won't open
AFAIK, they're supposed to be able to. I've used trumpets and baritone horns that allowed for this



I only have one repair shop in town, so another bridge I'll need to see if I want to cross is if it won't cost too much to ship it out for repairs.

[jimpjorps]

Dealing with stuck valves, slides and caps should be in the wheelhouse of any shop that sells brass instruments. Those are pretty typical problems with horns that have been sitting in storage for a while and aren't properly lubricated -- which is how student instruments are often treated. It should be very cheap or even free to fix some of these problems, since they'll take literal seconds for a trained tech to handle.

The hand towel and pliers can work for getting the caps off. You might want to try some penetrating oil on the gap between the parts as well; another option is to get a small strap wrench from a hardware store. I've seen techs use a rawhide hammer to tap around the outside of the caps to loosen their grip on the threads, but I wouldn't recommend trying that yourself.

The stem-button assembly should be easy to deal with with penetrating oil, too. Only issue will be getting a good grip on the two components and being able to twist them in opposite directions without marking up either.

The slides are trickier since applying too much force to them can cause you to bend connections or even rip the horn apart. I've had luck with looping a soft cord (or even a necktie) around the slide and pulling firmly (but not quickly) on it, though this can distort the slide if only one side is frozen.

[RickF]

Pliers can be too much force to use on brass caps - even with a rag. Brass is soft and can be damaged fairly easily. I would take it to a professional brass tech for service.

I have a small strap wrench that I bought several years ago called the "Zyliss Strong Boy". It's designed to open jar lids in the kitchen, but works well for brass valve caps. For awhile it was'nt available. It should fit valve caps from trumpet to tuba. Here's a link:

Zyliss Strong Boy

[RickF]

I tried editing my post above and it showed up originally, but then the edit portion was gone. Very weird. Been getting a lot of 503 errors, not available too. Usually they go away if you wait just 30 seconds and try again.

I see that the Zyliss Strong Boy is not available again.

There's an older version - that I really like better - because it fits in tighter spaces better (like tops of valve casings). It has a stainless steel strap instead of the rubber strap so I wrapped black rubber tape over mine so it won't scratch the brass. This comes in handy during band camp with middle school students along with a mpc shank truing tool.

Zyliss Strongboy Jar and Bottle Opener

This one is only $4 plus shipping.

[graeme]

Wondering if anyone has done DIY valve venting ?

[John Morgan]

Wondering if anyone has done DIY valve venting ?

Graeme: Don't think I would try that myself. Number one, you have to put the vent in the correct place. Number two, you have to know how big a hole to make. Number three, you don't want metal bits inside the valve, there are ways to avoid this, usually done by people who REALLY know what they are doing. Number four, you have to drill the hole without screwing up the valve (in any kind of clamp, or skipping off the hole to put unintended gouges on other parts of the valve, etc.). Number five, you have to probably smooth out the hole entry point on the valve to make sure there are absolutely no burrs on the surface of the valve. Number six, I am sure there is a number six, but can't think of it right now, other than to say take this to someone who REALLY knows everything there is to know about venting valves on brass instruments and has done it successfully multiple times before, or be prepared to buy replacement valves if you screw up anywhere along the way.

[John Morgan]

I purchased a used Yamaha yep321 off Ebay that I finally received.

The horn plays surprisingly well (more so on myself since I haven't played for in over a month). However, I have the following issues, and am wondering what should be sent to a repair shop, vs. what I can do on my own

MAIN CONCERNS
3rd and 4th valves won't open
Can't oil the valves unless I drip them through from the bottom holes
I read that wrapping the caps with a hand towel, and using pliers to loosen it can work



LESSER CONCERNS
2nd valve and 4th valve tuning slides won't budge

turning the finger buttons also turns the stem that it connects to
So for 3 of the valves, turning the finger button enough times removes the finger button AND the stem, like they're one unit.

bottom caps of the valves won't open
AFAIK, they're supposed to be able to. I've used trumpets and baritone horns that allowed for this



I only have one repair shop in town, so another bridge I'll need to see if I want to cross is if it won't cost too much to ship it out for repairs.

You will really want to be able to open all valve caps, tops and bottoms, and take off the finger buttons. You will need to clean the valve casing occasionally, and you can't do this without being able to get in there. You usually run something entirely through the valve casing, and you need the tops and bottoms off to do this. Same with slides, they all should work, and come out for greasing and when you clean the entire horn. Plus being able to move the slides is quite necessary if you want to play in tune!

I would recommend taking the horn to a qualified technician to have all these things attended to. Once you get everything undone, keep all valves oiled and slides greased. ALWAYS. Until the end of time. Or you will get this same situation again.

[John Morgan]

Now that ackmondual has posted questions about do it yourself vs. taking your horn to a repair shop, I have a question for anyone that may have encountered this.

I have owned many horns in my life, I keep them oiled and greased, and use them frequently, so nothing has ever stuck or froze for me. However, I just purchased a 1956 Boosey & Hawkes Imperial euphonium in near pristine condition. Besides needing new felts and corks, it is absolutely excellent. All valves, top and bottom caps, and slides work, with the exception of the short slide on the 1st valve and the short slide on the 3rd valve (compensating). Those two are frozen in place and I suspect have not been moved since before man landed on the moon. I did not want to put too much pressure on the slides to remove them, fearing that I would pull something off the horn I did not intend to.

Anyone have any ideas on what I might do to get these two short slides out. Of course, on the 3rd valve slide, there is a ring. But the little stubby 1st valve slide only has the little nubs to grip onto. I am wondering if some kind of solvent poured in through the valve casing into the slide might do something besides make a mess. Any ideas on this? Thanks.

[davewerden]

John,

I'm not a qualified repair person, but here is what I would try.

Penetrating oil might do the trick, but then you'd have to clean the whole horn out. So I would start with petroleum valve oil, placed several times a day on the outer joint for both slides, and from insides if you can get a good angle. You might tap lightly on the end of the slide with a small rubber mallet or the equivalent just to jostle things along the way. Then after a couple days of this, thread a thick shoestring through the slide bend of each and give it a few sharp tugs. Use your judgement about how hard. You might do this with the horn laying on its face, and with a towel placed around all the surrounding tubing to prevent dents if/when the slide pops out.

[John Morgan]

John,

I'm not a qualified repair person, but here is what I would try.

Penetrating oil might do the trick, but then you'd have to clean the whole horn out. So I would start with petroleum valve oil, placed several times a day on the outer joint for both slides, and from insides if you can get a good angle. You might tap lightly on the end of the slide with a small rubber mallet or the equivalent just to jostle things along the way. Then after a couple days of this, thread a thick shoestring through the slide bend of each and give it a few sharp tugs. Use your judgement about how hard. You might do this with the horn laying on its face, and with a towel placed around all the surrounding tubing to prevent dents if/when the slide pops out.

Well, lets see, in my Army training I jumped out of airplanes, flew helicopters in unusual attitudes, and did all manner of crazy, dangerous things, but this operation has me a little worried. I can see me giving the slide an Incredible Hulk tug and breaking off the entire slide from the valve, and in the process probably have the slide and other parts flying around my room and impaling on my Adams sitting on the other side. But that may be the only solution. I may try the oil inside and out for a few days and see if I can pull the 3rd slide by the ring. Any pulling right now just seems to flex the slide and I don't want to overdo it. I must admit (I hate telling on myself) that I rarely ever did much with either one of these slides. I may elect to just let them be as is and make believe that both slides are like the 2nd valve compensating slide which there isn't one, just the tubing, so it doesn't move.

[highpitch]

+1 on never moving the compensator slides for tuning. Once in a while I pull the 3rd one to find a small drip, but as soon as you lay the thing across your lap it drains anyway.

Dennis

[graeme]

Graeme: Don't think I would try that myself. Number one, you have to put the vent in the correct place. Number two, you have to know how big a hole to make. Number three, you don't want metal bits inside the valve, there are ways to avoid this, usually done by people who REALLY know that they are doing. Number four, you have to drill the hole without screwing up the valve (in any kind of clamp, or skipping off the hole to put unintended gouges on other parts of the valve, etc.). Number five, you have to probably smooth out the hole entry point on the valve to make sure there are absolutely no burrs on the surface of the valve. Number six, I am sure there is a number six, but can't think of it right now, other than to say take this to someone who REALLY knows everything there is to know about venting valves on brass instruments and has done it successfully multiple times before, or be prepared to buy replacement valves if you screw up anywhere along the way.

Thanks John.I will take that as a no then.

[davewerden]

I have a related story, which will perhaps serve as perspective and/or warning.

In the 1970's we saw a serious expansion in the number of people who wanted car tape players. Most cars on the road did not have them, and there were few in-dash replacements available, so people bought a tape player in the store and then bought a mount for it. The mounts were around $10-$20 as I recall, a cheap price to play for the convenience they offered.

Keep in mind, that during this time, most cars had a front engine and rear-wheel drive, so the was a large hump in the middle of the front seat floor for the transmission. Putting the player's mount on the transmission hump was a popular option. It required drilling 4 holes and then just screwing the thing in place. Pretty simple, and most folks chose to do this job themselves rather than pay a shop $25 or so to do it for them.

The instructions that came with these mounts talked about using a drill-stop, which was a collar that fit around the drill bit, so only a short length of the bit was available. And typically people ignored that advice. A friend of a friend was installing his own mount, and he was typical. Can you see where this story is going? His drill went through the sheet metal that forms the hump and continued right on through the transmission casing. That turned out to be a very expensive mounting job!

[iiipopes]

Pliers can be too much force to use on brass caps - even with a rag. Brass is soft and can be damaged fairly easily. I would take it to a professional brass tech for service.

Agreed. Sometimes a tech will take an appointment and loosen caps while you wait, at minimal cost, as opposed to the several days and significant expense needed to fix damage from not being loosened properly. Remember Harry Callahan - A man has got to know his limitations.

[ghmerrill]

Yes. I've done this on two of the pistons on my 1924 tuba so I can pull slides (or use a slide kicker I made) as I play. It's not obvious to me why you'd want to do it on a euphonium unless for a kicker on a valve slide, which doesn't seem like a particularly good idea. However, ...

This sort of repair (and the usual advice given) always seems to me very much like the dire warnings I encountered many years ago when wanting to repair the coaster brakes on my kids' bicycles. The universal injunction was to NEVER attempt this because it was SO COMPLICATED that only a PROFESSIONAL could hope to do it. But they when you manage to find instructions for it and go at it yourself, you discover it's not really difficult, but requires some minimal skills and attention to detail. It's not rocket science.

For piston valves it's trivial, but requires some care. It's actually very easy (particularly on an instrument with any wear on the pistons at all) to see where to put the hole. Then it's just a matter of putting it in the right place and drilling only through the piston wall. I do it with a drill press and padded drill press vise (you want to be REALLY careful not to distort the casing with valve pressure). You can do it with a handheld drill, but then you'll want to (gently) use a punch to dimple the entry point so the bit doesn't wander. As I recall, there are some sites on the web (or maybe Youtube) that illustrate it.

With a drill press -- if you have ANY experience with one -- it's a no-brainer, and you can easily feel the point at which the bit goes through the piston wall and back it out way before you go too far. A little 600 grit emery paper lightly applyed at the entry hole is all you need to remove any roughness. Make sure you carefully wash off all grit before sticking it back in the valve case.

I've used the same technique to replace the old brass valve guides on that tuba with plastic ones, drilling out the hole and tapping it. Piece of cake. It takes less time to do than it takes to then fashion a new guide out of a plastic machine screw.

Rotary valves are more of a challenge (primarily in terms of placement of a hole and getting a drill in the right position to accomplish it). I'd likely do it if I ever had to, but the one time I needed that, I had it done by Mike Morse at the Tuba Exchange.

Re stuck slides: PB Blaster. Give it time. Once you get it to move even a little bit, then apply more PB Blaster, wait, and do it again. Maybe repeated applications over a week or more. Otherwise, heat may work. A hair dryer or heat gun may be effective (but be really careful of damaging a lacquer finish). I might use a torch (especially on a silver plate instrument), but you need a light touch with the torch in order not to ruin the finish (especially on a lacquer instrument), and I don't recommend it unless you have experience. PB Blaster is NOT a "penetrating oil". It's something completely different (chemically and physically). I don't believe I've ever had it fail on anything from rusted tractor parts to tuning slides.

If the "usual" techniques of PB Blaster, pulling the slide by hand (or with a rag looped around it), or with a bit of heat don't work, then you're getting into territory where experience and other skills count. Just so you know, pretty much the last step (before significant torch-applied deconstruction and removal of the entire slide mechanism) involves de-soldering the crook, removing it, then in turn temporarily soldering a mandrel into the end of the inner slide, applying more PB Blaster, and using a wrench or pliers to apply rotational torque to the mandrel in order to turn the inner slide and so free it. You would probably want to go to a repair tech for that (particularly since you likely don't have something you could use as a mandrel -- though I find that a large drift punch works just fine).

But here's the bottom line: If you DON'T have the minimal skills, and some minimal experience, and if you DON'T feel confident and comfortable with it, then DON'T try it. Too much risk for the minor reward of avoiding the time and expense of taking it to someone who does have the skills (and experience and tools).