wanting a 12" red brass bell

[bbocaner]

On trombone, I find that red brass (versus yellow) makes things darker up until around a mf dynamic level and then brighter above that. I like yellow better.

On euphonium, I don't think red brass does much at all to timbre, I just find that it robs me of clarity of articulations and tone and gives me a different feedback feel.

[adrian_quince]

You'd have to contact Kanstul for a bell only. The Kanstul 976 features detachable bells, including one in red brass. Here's a photo:



In terms of playing characteristics, the bell is responsive and overall has a dark sound, but really brightens up and takes on an edge when pushed past ff.

The other thing is, I really do think you'd want to have a custom bell made for the 2280. You mention the horn's intonation being quite good. I'd be wary of adding a "stock" Kanstul red brass bell with different geometry.

[58mark]

That's a beautiful horn, thanks for the pics

I know it's a gamble changing bells, I wish there was a way to try one out first, but I'm thinking of just going for it

[adrian_quince]

That's a beautiful horn, thanks for the pics

Thanks! I actually named the horn Rosie after the bell. Plays very well for me, too. Took a little getting used to the way the tone color changes at different dynamics, but I've found it can add a very compelling color to loud tutti passages. Also, it absolutely wails on the Mars solo. A friend called it the "warhorn of doom" in that particular context.

I know it's a gamble changing bells, I wish there was a way to try one out first, but I'm thinking of just going for it

I'm curious as to what's driving you to take the gamble. Specifically, what is it that you're finding deficient about the King's sound now that you think a new bell would fix?

[58mark]

It's an experiment to max out the upper end potential of the king. I'm curious what would happen if a 12" bell would be used, and even more intrigued about the effects of different bell materials

If I had a spare 12" bell available, no matter what the material it was made of, I would try that first.

[adrian_quince]

When you talk about upper end, what specific dimensions of sound are you going after? Range? Volume? Focus? Articulation? Timbre? Reason I ask is that I think if you ended up in a conversation with a good instrument maker, they'd want to know what specifically you're trying to accomplish.

Just top of mind, here's my prediction about how a 12" red brass bell would affect various dimensions of sound:

Range: Lower register a little more open, higher register a little more taxing.
Volume: It would take more air to produce a given volume, but with a larger bell you'd have the potential for higher volume overall.
Focus: Larger bell and red brass would both tend towards a less focused sound, but one that could potentially blend better with a large ensemble. (IOW, better for concert band than chamber music)
Articulation: Red brass would soften articulations, as would a larger bell.
Timbre: In addition to the comments earlier about red brass, the larger bell would tend to darken the tone.
Intonation: Unless the geometry were quite well done, a different bell would probably bring additional intonation problems to the instrument.

I don't think there's a right or wrong here, just tradeoffs that need to be considered. The 2280 is marketed (and I think performs as) a soloist instrument. Its sound is compact and focused and that's what it uses to be heard through an ensemble. So in my mind, messing with the instrument really needs to start with what your playing style and environment are and follow from there.

[58mark]

It's an experiment. So many of the professional level euphoniums have gone to a 12" bell (all of them I think) that I'm interested what the potential of the 2280 is. I love the sound, feel, and intonation as is. Would the 12" bell make things even better? I'm curious


I disagree about it being a soloist instrument. I have A/B'd it with both a Besson soveriegn and a Adams E3 and found them to have a similar feel and tone, even with the 11" bell. Right now King markets it as " an excellent intermediate, non-compensating euphonium that produces a great overall sound"'

Intermediate because it lacks the features that Pros prefer, namely a 12" bell and full chromatic scale down to the fundamental. Since Conn Selmer refuses to do anything to improve the line, I'm going to do it myself by adding a 5th valve and trying a different bell.

[adrian_quince]

I disagree about it being a soloist instrument. I have A/B'd it with both a Besson soveriegn and a Adams E3 and found them to have a similar feel and tone, even with the 11" bell. Right now King markets it as " an excellent intermediate, non-compensating euphonium that produces a great overall sound"

I guess I have a different view of the instrument. I've never had the chance to play much on one, but I have a player in one of my groups who plays one regularly. To my ear, there is a definite philosophy in the sound of being compact and focused on that horn. It lacks in depth for my taste, but the sound to my ear seems very suited to the solos in pre-1950 American band literature. The Melody Shop springs to mind as sounding very good on a 2280.

Intermediate because it lacks the features that Pros prefer, namely a 12" bell and full chromatic scale down to the fundamental. Since Conn Selmer refuses to do anything to improve the line, I'm going to do it myself by adding a 5th valve and trying a different bell.

From a business perspective, I don't think it makes a lot of sense for Conn-Selmer to do much to change the 2280. It's one of the best offerings in the non-compensating niche. Since their business model is based on making a lot of instruments decently, they'd really need to see an opportunity to capture a big chunk of the professional euphonium market. Between Besson, Willson, Adams, and Miraphone, there's no way for Conn-Selmer to make their business model work in the pro market.

In terms of experimenting, have you thought about getting a slide for the 4th valve that would pitch it in Eb? It would certainly be less invasive than grafting in a 5th valve and would give a full chromatic scale down to pedal Bb.

[58mark]

It already has a 4th valve slide that will do that, it's not an acceptable solution

The way you describe the 2280 makes me think you are thinking of a different horn. It's a large bore euphonium, (580-600) but you describe it like an old bell front horn

There is a huge market out there for a better quality non compensating instrument. There are a lot of schools that go from the yamaha 321 then right to Adams or besson instruments because is nothing in between except for Chinese clones. Even if king charged $4000 for an upgraded 2280, schools could get two of them for the price of one besson

[adrian_quince]

It already has a 4th valve slide that will do that, it's not an acceptable solution

Is it sound, fingering patterns, or ergonomics? If the first two, then I would agree. If the last, a slide that bent back on itself might be a possibility to avoid the problem of long slides sticking out. That 4th valve slide configuration looks really cumbersome for use in real life, despite the designers' intent of allowing slide pulls for E and Eb.

The way you describe the 2280 makes me think you are thinking of a different horn. It's a large bore euphonium, (580-600) but you describe it like an old bell front horn

No, I'm definitely thinking of a 2280. The tone quality from the 2280 is excellent, just philosophically different from the Besson template. It has a directness that is characteristic of the best American euphoniums, at least when I hear it.

As an aside, the old bell front horns don't sound particularly clear to me. On the podium, I get a lot of their "crud" instead of tone.

There is a huge market out there for a better quality non compensating instrument. There are a lot of schools that go from the yamaha 321 then right to Adams or besson instruments because is nothing in between except for Chinese clones. Even if king charged $4000 for an upgraded 2280, schools could get two of them for the price of one besson

I didn't say there wasn't a market. I said there wasn't a market for Conn-Selmer. Big difference. Even on their professional brass, their quality is well below what I would expect from a top-shelf brass maker. I know multiple trumpet players who have bought recent-production Bach Strads only to be frustrated by inconsistency and build problems. A smaller-scale maker that focused more on the quality of individual instruments is really what is needed to fill the gap in the market.