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Thread: Battle of the Yamahas - Neo VS Custom

  1. #21
    Join Date
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    Central North Carolina
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asianeuph View Post
    I've had the second slide pop out on my Neo before, I took it in to the shop after I got tired of it for a week. Can't remember what my tech said, but it hasn't popped out since and it still slides like butter.
    This is a problem endemic to euphoniums and very frequently encountered in Yamaha euphs (and their clones). All you have to do is to take the slide out, look at it, and you'll see the cause of the problem. The fix to it is to run an expander ball of just the right size down each of the tubes (well, "tube stubs" is more accurate). This takes a tech (who has about 100 of these balls) just a few minutes and is a permanent solution. I had the same problem (though not very pronounced) on my Mack Brass horn (a Yamaha clone), and fixed it myself so it's not an issue -- but I won't tell you how I did it. At some point, I think I'll take it in and have it done a bit better. You really need a graduated set of expander balls in order to get it just right.

    A problem is that you want the slide to fit tightly enough so it doesn't fall out from any air pressure while playing the horn, but you want it to slide easily enough so you can pull it to dump water and re-insert it without difficulty. I'm also thinking of expanding the tubes so they'll fit very tightly, removing the pull ring, and adding an Amado water key. But at the moment, it's not a problem for me and works very well with the Dupont high vacuum silicone grease I use as slide lubricant.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by ghmerrill View Post
    I'm also thinking of expanding the tubes so they'll fit very tightly, removing the pull ring, and adding an Amado water key.
    FWIW, I have a Wessex with the Amado water key on the second valve slide, and I find that I can't get enough of the water out with it. For me, the 2nd slide always fills up the fastest, and needs emptying the soonest. Whether it's something in the placement of the Amado on the slide, or just the quantity of water, I still have to pull and dump it to really empty it. But, I also find this to be true on the first valve, which has a traditional water key. I'm also kind of old-school, having always played horns that had no water keys on most of the slides, so I'm accustomed to pulling and dumping anyway.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by howrdhodge View Post
    FWIW, I have a Wessex with the Amado water key on the second valve slide, and I find that I can't get enough of the water out with it. For me, the 2nd slide always fills up the fastest, and needs emptying the soonest. Whether it's something in the placement of the Amado on the slide, or just the quantity of water, I still have to pull and dump it to really empty it. But, I also find this to be true on the first valve, which has a traditional water key. I'm also kind of old-school, having always played horns that had no water keys on most of the slides, so I'm accustomed to pulling and dumping anyway.
    My Sterling was not good about emptying quickly, so I took it to my repair tech. He just enlarged the drain hole slightly and then it was great. Note that the angle you hold the horn while emptying at is important. Also, if you blow air to help it, figure out which direction the air goes and make sure you tip it so the air is not blowing the water away from the hole. And if your horn gets really dirty inside, it can clog these drain hole, too.
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    Alliance Mouthpiece (DC3)
    YouTube: dwerden
    Facebook: davewerden
    Twitter: davewerden
    Instagram: davewerdeneuphonium

  4. #24
    Just wanted to throw new cents in - I had to sell my Adams due to baby and not playing as much and bought a Wessex. The Wessex reminds me of everything I liked about the 842 I used to own with (so far) none of the garbage. It's more ergonomic to hold, intonation is very similar to how my 842 was, partial distance is more similar, I really like it so far. When the kid gets older I want to resume playing and now think I may look at a Neo along with Adams again.
    Adams E3 0.6 with SS Bell
    K&G 3.5D
    ---------------------------------
    Founder and Solo Euphonium
    San Francisco Brass Band

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Central North Carolina
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    Quote Originally Posted by davewerden View Post
    My Sterling was not good about emptying quickly, so I took it to my repair tech. He just enlarged the drain hole slightly and then it was great.
    I have two Amado keys that I put (emphasis on "I PUT" -- not "I had put") on my 1924 Eb tuba -- which theortically should condense a lot more water than a euph. They both work great, BUT ...

    First, I bored out the holes to the next drill size AFTER the Amado body was soldered on (i.e., you drill down through the drain hole in the Amado cylinder with the plunger and spring removed. You need to be careful with this. If you use too big a drill bit, the key will leak when closed.

    Second, Amado water keys must be kept CLEAN and WELL LUBRICATED. If you don't do this, they'll crud up and won't drain well. Usually, frequent lubrication (at least as frequently as you lube your valves -- but every time you play is probably best) takes care of this. But they can also easily be disassembled for cleaning.

    I also have an Amado key on the bottom of one end of the PVC valve gutter I made (so I can drain it without removing it). This works well too (and I just discovered it also fits my euphonium!), but again, it needs to be lubricated frequently.

    I too prefer traditional keys, but the Amado ones are just too easy to install, quite inexpensive, and they take up virtually no space.
    Last edited by ghmerrill; 10-06-2016 at 05:58 PM.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  6. #26
    Pollard water key. Similar concept to the Amado, just better made. Better compression, easier to take apart, bigger hole for better draining.

    http://www.pollardwaterkey.com/
    --
    Barry

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by bbocaner View Post
    Pollard water key. Similar concept to the Amado, just better made. Better compression, easier to take apart, bigger hole for better draining.

    http://www.pollardwaterkey.com/
    Yes, I'm gradually putting these on my trombones. I have three right now. Even when the horn sits in its case for a bit, just a few drops of blue juice and it's back to work.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Central North Carolina
    Posts
    2,368
    I have no doubt that this is a superior product. But the Pollard in raw brass is $50, and the Amado in silver plate is $12 (and can be had for about $7 if you have a commercial account with somewhere like Votaw Tool). So, for those of you who have had this key installed (or had it plated and installed it yourself), what's the total cost? Some of the pictures on the site seem to have keys in which the main body (but not the screw) is silver plated. Apparently (their FAQ) they will plate the keys. Anyone know what the added cost is?

    And when it gets to be that high a cost, do you feel it offers a significant advantage over a traditional (lever) water key?

    I confess that I've never had any problems with the Amado keys I put on my tuba. So my motivation isn't high to go to something else. And by the way, my keys have a machined slot in them that can be used to easily disassemble them, as the Pollard advertises. I think that most of the claims on the Pollard site concerning the Amado and its construction pertain to the first generation or from some particular lot. I also confess that (despite Pollard's arguments) I still prefer the traditional lever type key (if it will fit where it needs to!), and have no problems with mine seating or sealing so long they are correctly aligned (duh) and I use Valentino synthetic "corks". The only reason I put Amados on the tuba was that they were so inexpensive and easy to do.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  9. #29
    Not wanting revive an old thread, but I thought based on what I had to say it should.

    Over the past couple of months, I have been swapping back and forth between numerous euphoniums - the Yamaha Maestro (standard 642), the Custom (842) and the Neo (642-II). I was originally using a Yamaha Maestro in lacquer with a Bach 4G mouthpiece, which for the most part was a good fit. The things I loved about this instrument was the tone (yes, slightly on the plain side, but I enjoyed the tone on it better then the Besson Sovereign I was using previously), the intonation (for the most part - there were a few wonky notes that wouldn't centre well) and the ease of playing.

    I had the opportunity to give a Yamaha Custom a crack for a week or two to see how I would go. At first, I was blown away with everything. It was easier to play then the Maestro, the upper register was easier, the intonation was slightly better, and I loved the tone. I could also get a high concert Ab on it! However after a while, things dropped off (I think the placebo effect minimalised). The ergonomics (for the most part) I could handle, but it would get tiring having to hold the instrument more up. The tone was too consistent for my tastes, and it had no projection whatsoever. I felt like no matter how hard I tried to drive it, it wouldn't open up (this was especially the case in wind orchestra rehearsal). The low register and pedals didn't open up like what I am used to, and it was too thin of a sound. Ultimately, it made a pretty tone.......and that was it.

    I then managed to get a Yamaha Neo on trial for a week, and I believe I have found the best of both worlds. It is more to the Sovereign end of euphoniums then the Custom end, which I like. I find it contains all the great qualities I loved about the Besson Sovereign I was using, but so much more well engineered and with Yamaha's consistency. I have found what seems like a good combination of the Neo with my gold plated SM4U, in which the tone is great. It has great projection in all registers; intonation is spot on (still a few notes that are a bit out but would have to be the best euphonium for intonation I have played on); the upper register just sings when you open it up; ergonomics are great (it seems to have more weight then the Neo - maybe due to changing the metal gauge thickness); and for the pricepoint; you would be hard pressed to find a better euphonium at that price. I won't be able to do a full extensive review, but in my opinion, the Neo is the real deal. Also I never found any problems with it under-projecting in ensembles. From playing with it in brass band and also wind orchestra, the Neo has no problem projecting over the ensemble.

    So now I have purchased one for my university studies, and I am confident that I can rely on this instrument for many years to come.

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