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Thread: Handling the horn?

  1. #1

    Handling the horn?

    I'm a lifelong trombonist, but I'm making my first extended run of playing euphonium, putting in multiple hours per week in practice and rehearsal. I'm finding some ergonomic/technique issues that are causing me problems, and I'm looking for some advice on a few matters.

    1. Holding the instrument while sitting: I have always rested the bottom bow on my left leg. While playing for shorter durations in the past, this didn't present a problem. I either did the 'euphonium slouch' or raised the left leg slightly by resting my left foot on top of my right or by using a guitar foot stand. This time around, I purchased a lap pad from the Quick Horn Rinse guys, and that's working OK, but what I'm really wondering is if I should just be holding up the instrument with my arms and not resting it on my leg? I don't play standing, and I'm not sure if I even could by supporting the weight with just my left arm without doing myself a mischief.

    2. Grip and tension - I recognize that I probably play with a lot of body tension at times, but it's never resulted in my current problem. My left arm, reaching around the front of the instrument to use the side-mounted fourth valve, puts enough pressure against the fourth-valve tuning slide that it extends without me realizing it until suddenly something is drastically out of tune. I haven't yet tried a stickier slide grease or candle wax, which would probably fix the issue, but is this a common thing or am I really doing something odd with my grip on the instrument?

    3. Finger technique - I don't have good technical form. I play flat-fingered and tend to flail in fast moving passages. Again, never had this issue previously, but now I'm finding that the valves are tending to drag on release, and it's due to me pulling back on them, which causes the valve stem to drag on the way up. The valve action itself is fine, and if I use proper technique with just the fingers on the top of the button, I don't have a problem. I have tried putting a drop of valve oil on the stem, and while it helps a little, it doesn't alleviate the issue. I'm working on using proper technique, but in the moment I often forget and then have the issue.

    Thanks for any input that you have. I'm enjoying this extended stretch of playing, but would probably enjoy it more with a good strategy for just holding on to the instrument.

    Matt

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by howrdhodge View Post
    1. Holding the instrument while sitting: I have always rested the bottom bow on my left leg. While playing for shorter durations in the past, this didn't present a problem. I either did the 'euphonium slouch' or raised the left leg slightly by resting my left foot on top of my right or by using a guitar foot stand. This time around, I purchased a lap pad from the Quick Horn Rinse guys, and that's working OK, but what I'm really wondering is if I should just be holding up the instrument with my arms and not resting it on my leg? I don't play standing, and I'm not sure if I even could by supporting the weight with just my left arm without doing myself a mischief.
    USE the lap pad! It will help reduce tension. The dull-looking side should rest against your leg; the normal pebble-grain surface is where the horn sits. You need to fool with the position a bit so the horn does not need much support. Your left hand should be able to maintain balance with a light grip only.

    Quote Originally Posted by howrdhodge View Post
    2. Grip and tension - I recognize that I probably play with a lot of body tension at times, but it's never resulted in my current problem. My left arm, reaching around the front of the instrument to use the side-mounted fourth valve, puts enough pressure against the fourth-valve tuning slide that it extends without me realizing it until suddenly something is drastically out of tune. I haven't yet tried a stickier slide grease or candle wax, which would probably fix the issue, but is this a common thing or am I really doing something odd with my grip on the instrument?
    Are you sure it is your arm? If the slide is loose enough it can work its way out just from air pressure. If so, heavier slide grease might help (especially the synthetics). A repair person could easily adjust the slide so it does not slip as easily. If it IS your arm, please send us a photo of your playing position.

    Quote Originally Posted by howrdhodge View Post
    3. Finger technique - I don't have good technical form. I play flat-fingered and tend to flail in fast moving passages. Again, never had this issue previously, but now I'm finding that the valves are tending to drag on release, and it's due to me pulling back on them, which causes the valve stem to drag on the way up. The valve action itself is fine, and if I use proper technique with just the fingers on the top of the button, I don't have a problem. I have tried putting a drop of valve oil on the stem, and while it helps a little, it doesn't alleviate the issue. I'm working on using proper technique, but in the moment I often forget and then have the issue.

    • Ideally your fingers should have roughly the same arch as if you hang your hand by your side relaxed. Your inmost knuckles should be roughly aligned with the center of travel.
    • Your valve stem should NOT be in contact with the valve top-cap - ever. If it is, get it to a repair shop. This is not a point of contact, and therefore should not need lubrication.
    • But awkward pressure will still cause the valve to stick. The finger arch should help. My videos demonstrate that pretty well, usually (although sometimes I overlap the valves in some passages for some odd mental reason).
    • The important thing, in all this, is to be relaxed as you play. Waste no motion. Practice this from the moment you pick up the horn (but don't get so relaxed that you drop it!!). On your first warmup note, which for most of us is open, you should be able to be quite relaxed throughout your arms and hands.
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    Alliance Mouthpiece (DC3)
    YouTube: dwerden
    Facebook: davewerden
    Twitter: davewerden
    Instagram: davewerdeneuphonium

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    West Palm Beach, FL
    Posts
    3,853
    Quote Originally Posted by howrdhodge View Post
    (snip)

    1. Holding the instrument while sitting: I have always rested the bottom bow on my left leg. While playing for shorter durations in the past, this didn't present a problem. I either did the 'euphonium slouch' or raised the left leg slightly by resting my left foot on top of my right or by using a guitar foot stand. This time around, I purchased a lap pad from the Quick Horn Rinse guys, and that's working OK, but what I'm really wondering is if I should just be holding up the instrument with my arms and not resting it on my leg? I don't play standing, and I'm not sure if I even could by supporting the weight with just my left arm without doing myself a mischief.
    Some have no problem holding the horn up with their arms (probably younger folks). I find using a lap pillow a great help myself. It depends on your torso height and height of your lead-pipe how thick you need the pillow. Pretty sure the QHR pillow thickness is adjustable.

    2. Grip and tension - I recognize that I probably play with a lot of body tension at times, but it's never resulted in my current problem. My left arm, reaching around the front of the instrument to use the side-mounted fourth valve, puts enough pressure against the fourth-valve tuning slide that it extends without me realizing it until suddenly something is drastically out of tune. I haven't yet tried a stickier slide grease or candle wax, which would probably fix the issue, but is this a common thing or am I really doing something odd with my grip on the instrument?
    I've never had the problem with the 4th slide being extended while holding the horn. That's a new one on me. Perhaps a heavier slide grease would help. I use Hetmans #7 for my slides but there are other brands of thick grease.

    3. Finger technique - I don't have good technical form. I play flat-fingered and tend to flail in fast moving passages. Again, never had this issue previously, but now I'm finding that the valves are tending to drag on release, and it's due to me pulling back on them, which causes the valve stem to drag on the way up. The valve action itself is fine, and if I use proper technique with just the fingers on the top of the button, I don't have a problem. I have tried putting a drop of valve oil on the stem, and while it helps a little, it doesn't alleviate the issue. I'm working on using proper technique, but in the moment I often forget and then have the issue.
    Yes it's pretty important to press straight down on the finger buttons of the valves. However, the valve stems should not be rubbing on the openings of the top valve caps. There should be a fair amount of clearance and the stems should be perfectly straight too.

    Hope this helps.
    Rick Floyd
    Miraphone 5050 - Warburton BJ / RF mpc
    YEP-641S (recently sold)
    Doug Elliott - 102 rim; I-cup; I-9 shank


    "Always play with a good tone, never louder than lovely, never softer than supported." - author unknown.
    Symphonic Band of the Palm Beaches
    El Cumbanchero (Raphael Hernandez, arr. Naohiro Iwai)
    Chorale and Shaker Dance
    (John Zdechlik)

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Central North Carolina
    Posts
    2,369
    Pretty much what Dave and Rick have said ...

    I do NOT like wrestling with any instrument, so I strive to hold the instrument with as little muscular effort and tension as possible. That solves a number of problems. For my large EEb tuba, I built my own sit-on stand that completely supports the instrument. For my euphonium, I made a "lap board" (padded with the waffle-pattern rubber shelf liner). There is no sense in holding a horn up with muscle power if you don't have to -- especially if you're older and maybe have arthritis. Just yesterday I soldered a finger hook onto my bass trombone to relieve what was otherwise just too much gripping force required (a ubiquitous problem with bass trombones). Effort and focus should go into playing, not fighting, the instrument.

    And there can be effects of fighting the instrument that you don't don't want. For example, one thing that may be causing you to have problems with friction/wear on valve stems is that you're having to hold the horn in such a way that instead of your fingers just sitting on top of the valve buttons and pushing/releasing straight up and down, you are (perhaps ever so slightly) gripping the valve button with your finger over an edge (or pulling the valve button as you push it down) -- and this because it's part of how you're struggling with the horn. Keep an eye on things like that because it can really screw up your pistons with uneven wear fairly quickly.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  5. For a lap board I use a swimming pull buoy its rounded on both sides and is perfect.

  6. #6
    Thank you all for the input.

    Interesting development, I decided to clean and re-lube the 4th valve tuning slide to see if I could put a heavier grease and maybe some paraffin on it to keep it in place. Still no luck there, as even just a little weight from my left arm can still make the slide move, so maybe the next stop will be a shop to get that looked at. But, since I was already taking things apart, I decided to also really clean out the 2nd valve with a case brush and swab, and re-oil, and lo and behold, I can now go back to my bad flat-fingered technique and the valve doesn't drag when released. I'm still working at keeping those finger tips on the buttons, but at least I can get by with my old habits if necessary. I've had a couple of times when my fingertips lost contact and I missed the valves completely!

    About the lap pad, I've got all the layers in, but it's still a little short for the Wessex as it only gets the mouthpiece to my chin. I'm not exceptionally tall, but all my height is in my torso. The Yamaha 321 must be a longer instrument, as I had to remove one layer of foam to get it to the right height.

    Another thing I've noticed as I'm really beginning to center in on how the Wessex plays: Middle C (C4) and the B natural right below it are really flat, even with both the 1 and 2 slides pushed all the way in. I've had to resort to 1+3 and 1+2+3 for those notes, where fortunately they are dead on. All other potential combos are as flat or worse than 1 and 1+2 respectively. Dave, your chart for the Wessex confirms those findings, but other than the alternates I'm using, what else can you do about these pitches? It sometimes feels dicey to hit that C cleanly from a cold start with 1+3. I find it harder to lip up than lip down, and can't easily manipulate the pitch from such a low starting point with just the chop.

    Also on the topic of intonation, even with the compensating system, I'm finding that the lowest D-flat, C and B natural are really sharp, and take a lot of lipping to get to where they need to be. It feels like I need to sacrifice the F, E, and E-flat if I want a solid C. Dave, your chart doesn't extend that low, but is this characteristic? I'm used to losing a set of fingerings on a non-compensating horn (usually around D-flat with 1+3+4 instead of 2+3+4) but I'm surprised it takes so much work to center the pitch on these lowest notes. Ironically, I have a lot of low Cs (C2) in my current playlists, though I can't say I've ever had much call for them before. FWIW, I also find the fundamental B-flat is also sharp, though it takes less work to get it placed properly.

    Thanks,
    Matt

  7. #7
    Hi Matt,

    With regards to the tension in your right hand, see if you can hold the horn in playing position without your right hand. (It might be a good idea to do this with someone else who can spot the horn in case your grip is unsteady.) It sounds to me like the tension and angle problems you're having are coming from trying to support too much of the horn's weight with your right hand. I think the lap pad is really going to help out by taking some of the weight.

    I'm also a fan of the Quick Horn Rinse hand strap: http://stores.quickhornrinse.com/ehs...um-hand-strap/ It'll help your left hand feel more attached to the horn, reducing your instinct to grip with the right. Also, I find it helps with my dexterity on the 4th valve since my fingers aren't as tense from gripping. I'll use mine even in conjuction with a lap pad. Dave's review is here: http://www.dwerden.com/forum/entry.p...w#.VyJgLmZ_ehQ
    Adrian L. Quince
    Composer, Conductor, Euphoniumist
    www.adrianquince.com

    Kanstul 976 - SM4U

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by howrdhodge View Post
    Also on the topic of intonation, even with the compensating system, I'm finding that the lowest D-flat, C and B natural are really sharp, and take a lot of lipping to get to where they need to be. It feels like I need to sacrifice the F, E, and E-flat if I want a solid C. Dave, your chart doesn't extend that low, but is this characteristic? I'm used to losing a set of fingerings on a non-compensating horn (usually around D-flat with 1+3+4 instead of 2+3+4) but I'm surprised it takes so much work to center the pitch on these lowest notes. Ironically, I have a lot of low Cs (C2) in my current playlists, though I can't say I've ever had much call for them before. FWIW, I also find the fundamental B-flat is also sharp, though it takes less work to get it placed properly.
    First, the compensating system makes that range stuffier than a good non-comp horn. That extra resistance could cause a person to blow the notes sharp.

    Also, notice on the back of the valves: tuning slides - yea! Those work only for the compensating system. I think all comp euphs have a movable 3rd slide back there, and most have a movable 1st slide, too. The 2nd loop is too short to support a tuning slide. Tune the low F and the C (2nd space bass clef) for the best compromise, using the 4th slide. Then play a C# with 234 IN THAT SAME REGISTER. If the C# is sharp, pull the rear 3rd slide as needed. If it is not sharp in that register, then your problem with the lower octave is your air/chops. For the most part, the intonation with 234 should be about the same in either octave if your chops are relaxed enough in the low octave.

    Play an Eb (3rd space) in that same register. If it is sharp, pull the rear 1st slide.

    Then check the 2nd-space C with 134. If it is sharp, you may have to pull the rear 3rd slide a bit more to find a compromise between 134 and 234.

    All this assumes you have tuned the horn properly for the normal range!
    Last edited by davewerden; 05-05-2016 at 06:53 PM.
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    Alliance Mouthpiece (DC3)
    YouTube: dwerden
    Facebook: davewerden
    Twitter: davewerden
    Instagram: davewerdeneuphonium

  9. Where can I get a swimming pool buoy that is rounded on both sides? I just came from a pool supply store and they didn't have such an item and couldn't find it in their catalog. I'd appreciate more details and description of the buoy. Thanks.

    LittleJimmy

  10. I think it's a pull buoy (a foam pad you hold between your legs that forces you to swim with your arms alone) rather than a pool buoy. They look like this:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    You can probably get one at a sporting goods store.

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