Finally tried an adams

[miketeachesclass]

I got an adams E3 from Trent at Austin Custom Brass on approval to try. He even discounted it because of a ding in one of the 2nd valve tubes from trade show use.

This was an E3, yellow brass bell, brushed lacquer, with short action valves.

I was out of town when it arrived, so I was really anxious to play the horn when I returned. I played it along with my own sterling virtuoso, and a friend's Willson 2900s.

A few things I noticed right away:

1) the horn is physically much lighter than the other two I had. This surprised me.

2) the valves were top sprung, and looked surprisingly worn for a new horn, even with trade show use.

I initially left the AGR in its default position to play.

The sound was much less dense and robust than either the sterling or Willson. It sounded much less rich/robust to me. (Admittedly in a small room)

Response was Pretty good. A little quicker than the sterling and Willson in the mid-range of the horn. In the upper register, slotting got very narrow, and hard to manage. I assumed at this point it was because I needed to change the position of the AGR.

Response in the low register was a little stuffy, but acceptable. Not as easy as on either of the other horns I had.

I noticed once I had warmed up on the instrument that even with the tuning slide all the way in, I was around 10 cents flat all around the mid register of the horn. Again, I thought adjusting the AGR might change some things.

So I started with the AGR all the way in, played a little bit and then moved it WAY out to get an idea of the range I had available. All the way in, slightly slower response with wider slotting. All the way out, very quick response with narrow slotting.

The behavior above the staff didn't change much even with AGR adjustment. Thin sounding, narrow slotting.

I then tried the AGR in a few different positions in between, and while I could feel changes in response and slotting, the intonation never improved, and it never felt quite right to me.

I moved back to the sterling and Willson just to make sure I wasn't crazy, and easily played those two in tune with my slides in the usual places.

So, I'm sad to say, my first experience with an adams horn was less than stellar. It's possible it was isolated this horn, as it has some custom options like the short throw valves.

I REALLY wanted to love this horn, but as I went on, it became clearer that this was absolutely not going to work for me, so I'm afraid it's going back.

I was playing a Wick SM4X on all 3 horns.

Has anyone else played this horn? Any thoughts to add?

Thanks,
Mike

[RickF]

Hmm, I wonder if the Adams has different length main tuning slides as an option? I know that this was a problem with some folks with the Miraphone 5050. One forum member a few years ago couldn't get his horn up to pitch. He found out his horn was shipped with a longer tuning slide. Just a though.

[davewerden]

I'm at a disadvantage in this discussion because I have not yet tried either the E3 or the short-action valves. But here are some ideas.

Less-dense sound.
Complicated topic! First, I want a less-dense sound than the Willson. It has a great core and consistent tone, but it's hard to move it outside its own particular sound box. By my Adams, which is an E1 with sterling silver bell and .60 brass, was extremely close to my Sterling with heavy red-brass bell, but with slightly more projection. I would not have been willing to give up the great Sterling sound, even with Adams' better response and intonation. So it could be the metal choice, or the thickness (you can find the thickness stamped on the receiver), or the E3's natural differences. The heavier-metal in the E2 has been the best for denseness of sound.

There is also a difference in concept of sound production, at least on the E1 series I'm most familiar with. Adams' approach is to make sure the horn can resonate consistently through its entire length, which is partly why they hand-form tubing from sheet brass. Anyway, I've found that if you are used to forcing the sound to some extent, that is the wrong approach on my horn. You cooperate with the horn and "feel" the resonance as you play.

Response.
The AGR certainly affects this, and you should experiment with it. When I'm wandering around trade shows and trying random horns (including other Adams models) I find the Adams is slightly better in response over the low/middle range than the best of the others. I'd call the response in the high range less of a stand-out, but even that is interesting. It did seem like a little more work to hit a high Bb, for example. But on the other hand, after I got used to the horn a bit more I found that I could do things in the high range that I could not do dependably on my Sterling (or Bessons before), such as playing the very last phrase in Bydlo at least a full dynamic level softer. I don't know if the E3 model or short-action valves affect this quality.

Valve appearance.
I have to say, Adams valves are not as pretty as others. I'm not sure why. I know they are working on that facet. But when clean, the action is very quick and dependable and I don't detect any signs of leakage. This is the 4th Adams horn I've had for long-term or semi-long-term use and that has been consistent. I'll make sure Adams does not forget about this factor. While the valves are high quality functionally, it is still important to have a high-quality appearance in my book.

Intonation.
I requested mine with a slightly shorter tuning slide (main), after ordering such a slide for my previous horn. It does the trick for me, and I have never found the horn too low after it is warmed up.

Physical weight.
This makes me think you have thinner metal, but it could also be the weight difference of a trigger (you did not mention which horn has one or doesn't have one).

[miketeachesclass]

I'm at a disadvantage in this discussion because I have not yet tried either the E3 or the short-action valves. But here are some ideas.

Less-dense sound.
Complicated topic! First, I want a less-dense sound than the Willson. It has a great core and consistent tone, but it's hard to move it outside its own particular sound box. By my Adams, which is an E1 with sterling silver bell and .60 brass, was extremely close to my Sterling with heavy red-brass bell, but with slightly more projection. I would not have been willing to give up the great Sterling sound, even with Adams' better response and intonation. So it could be the metal choice, or the thickness (you can find the thickness stamped on the receiver), or the E3's natural differences. The heavier-metal in the E2 has been the best for denseness of sound.

There is also a difference in concept of sound production, at least on the E1 series I'm most familiar with. Adams' approach is to make sure the horn can resonate consistently through its entire length, which is partly why they hand-form tubing from sheet brass. Anyway, I've found that if you are used to forcing the sound to some extent, that is the wrong approach on my horn. You cooperate with the horn and "feel" the resonance as you play.

Response.
The AGR certainly affects this, and you should experiment with it. When I'm wandering around trade shows and trying random horns (including other Adams models) I find the Adams is slightly better in response over the low/middle range than the best of the others. I'd call the response in the high range less of a stand-out, but even that is interesting. It did seem like a little more work to hit a high Bb, for example. But on the other hand, after I got used to the horn a bit more I found that I could do things in the high range that I could not do dependably on my Sterling (or Bessons before), such as playing the very last phrase in Bydlo at least a full dynamic level softer. I don't know if the E3 model or short-action valves affect this quality.

Valve appearance.
I have to say, Adams valves are not as pretty as others. I'm not sure why. I know they are working on that facet. But when clean, the action is very quick and dependable and I don't detect any signs of leakage. This is the 4th Adams horn I've had for long-term or semi-long-term use and that has been consistent. I'll make sure Adams does not forget about this factor. While the valves are high quality functionally, it is still important to have a high-quality appearance in my book.

Intonation.
I requested mine with a slightly shorter tuning slide (main), after ordering such a slide for my previous horn. It does the trick for me, and I have never found the horn too low after it is warmed up.

Physical weight.
This makes me think you have thinner metal, but it could also be the weight difference of a trigger (you did not mention which horn has one or doesn't have one).

Dave,

Thank you, these are all thoughtful comments.

As it turns out, the Adams is the .70 gauge. So much for that being the reason it's lighter.

The other horns to have a trigger, but I was still surprised at the difference in weight.

I agree with you regarding the desired tonal characteristic. The Sterling sounds fantastic, in my opinion. The Willson is a little too "compact" for my taste.

The 4th valve on this horn (standard length) looks pretty good, it's just the short valves that look a little off to me, so who knows.

Interestingly, the tuning slide on this horn appears to be rose brass; it's the only thing on the horn that's different than the rest of the slides, which are brushed lacquer. Regardless, if I can't play the horn at pitch, it isn't much use to me! :-)

I'm going to play it a little more, but it's still looking like it's going to go back.

Thanks,
Mike

[davewerden]

ALL the main tuning slides are red brass. They have found that, for whatever reason, it helps the tone no matter what the alloy of the rest of the horn.

You may very well be right that it is not the horn for you. It could be you don't like the characteristics of the Adams, and that's to expected for some folks. No one instrument fits every taste. But I think you should try to get your hands on an E1 or E2 with the sterling bell and/or one with a red brass or gold brass body. If you are going to ITEC it will be a good chance!

[miketeachesclass]

ALL the main tuning slides are red brass. They have found that, for whatever reason, it helps the tone no matter what the alloy of the rest of the horn.

You may very well be right that it is not the horn for you. It could be you don't like the characteristics of the Adams, and that's to expected for some folks. No one instrument fits every taste. But I think you should try to get your hands on an E1 or E2 with the sterling bell and/or one with a red brass or gold brass body. If you are going to ITEC it will be a good chance!

Oh, that's interesting. Thanks for that info!

At this point, I'm definitely going to ITEC. I've never really had the opportunity to play test horns to find the best suited to me, so it seems prudent.

Mike

[JTJ]

My experience from playing an E1 for a year and two E2s for about 8-10 months each largely agrees Mike's criticisms and Dave's responses above.

I regret selling the E1, which was a .6 sterling silver model -- in day to day play in the ensemble and smaller groups, the E1 was darn near perfect.

I had less luck with E2s, a model i finally decided needed to be refined a little more to work for me in high level wind ensemble play (both E2s were subject to too much resonance, feeding back ensemble fortissimos as a kind of jitter in my sound, something I've never experienced in any other horn).
However, I only tried .6 E2s. A heavier gauge like .8 might have solved this problem. But I had no experience with heavier gauge Adams' horn, and I wasn't going to order one and possibly churn through more $$.

The Adams sound is less dense to the player; but to the listener, the audience, the sound is terrific given a good player who is capable of a good euphonium sound.

On flatness -- one E2 was so flat that it would only easily play in tune after a full warmup.

For the last year I've been playing a Yamaha 642 Neo, which is nothing like an Adams. It's great horn, which does not get enough respect. Part of its problem is that (unlike Adams) it doesn't dazzle in a quick play test; it keeps getting better with use. That said, I find the Neo a little dense in its approach to sound (its kind of Willson-like that way, without sounding at all like a Willson). So I may go back to an Adams E1 and sell the Yamaha.

[John Morgan]

JTJ: I am curious about your post and the two E2 Adams you played. You said you only tried .6 E2s, but from what I have learned about Adams, the E2 model is supposed to only come in .8 gauge metal. How did you get .6 E2s?

As some of you know, I have an E3 on order. I am sure hoping that the flatness issue is not to be found on my horn. Having to warm a horn up completely in order for it not to play flat, seems off. I would think that once the horn is warmed up, the main tuning slide should absolutely be out some, not all the way in. The horn should be sharp with the main tuning slide in.

Dave: You said you had the main tuning slide shortened. When you say that, do you actually mean the part you pull out, or rather the legs that you put the slide into? Did you find this necessary to do on "every" Adams you played? Does Adams make their horns with some of the higher European tuning in mind? I think generally A=440 is the standard in the U.S., but some in Europe tune to a slightly higher pitch if different from 440, not usually lower. So, if anything, you would think the Adams horn would not be flat.

It is interesting, and a little disconcerting, to hear some of the reviews on the Adams, especially this thread. And I have heard such utterly glowing reviews from others and spoken to some pretty impressive players who think their Adams is the best of the best. I suppose in the long run, it is just going to take getting the horn and trying it out for myself (and paying a hefty price for the privilege to do so!).

I probably shouldn't read these reviews until my horn arrives. And when it does, I hope to be able to give a stunningly glowing review!

[CEBunker]

Well...I'm just an amateur, but my E1is outstanding. I do find, however, that it is easy to make it sound 'bland' with changes in how I play (air, posture, fatigue, etc.) and especially with different mouthpieces! I have observed that each of my mouthpieces requires a different AGR position, and it's quite sensitive. I would guess that some of the 'me' sensitivity is also related to the function of the AGR. The AGR is a great innovation, but it does require extra work to maintain; maybe easier for pros who are more consistent.

I am willing to bet your house your horn will be awesome!

Chris

[Jrpetty24]

John: For a while, and maybe still currently, Adams was making a special E2 model with .6 gauge and a sterling silver bell. It was an interesting combination and produced interestingly different results I believe. I've never played one in person but I've come close by having all the heavy weight caps, buttons, and bottoms put on my E1 SS .6 gauge.

Mike: By no means by saying this am I trying to discredit your findings, but is it possible that because of the openness of the SM4 you used mixed with the openness of the Adams horns that you were flat? I played all the horns at TMEA this year including your exact model horn. E3 in lacquer with short action valves, which I loved btw. I had my girlfriend listen to me back and forth between my horn and all of the display horns Adams had and never once did she notice a major difference in intonation. My E1 typically has between 1/2 inch to 1 inch of main tuning slide pull. The only time I'm flat is in rooms that are in the 60 degree area. this causes me to be about 10-15 cents flat from my normal setup.

In reference to the valve appearance I totally agree, they look a little worn, or even wear funny or not evenly, but my valves are silky smooth and everyone in my studio has drooled over how smooth they are.

[davewerden]

Dave: You said you had the main tuning slide shortened. When you say that, do you actually mean the part you pull out, or rather the legs that you put the slide into? Did you find this necessary to do on "every" Adams you played? Does Adams make their horns with some of the higher European tuning in mind? I think generally A=440 is the standard in the U.S., but some in Europe tune to a slightly higher pitch if different from 440, not usually lower. So, if anything, you would think the Adams horn would not be flat.

This is an interesting piece of the conversation, both for us on the forum and for Adams as a builder. Miel says that the European players generally want longer slides. As with John, my impression was that Europeans would be playing sharper. But it is also possible that the Europeans have a different approach to playing and that causes them to play a given horn sharper than you or I might.

My "short" slide was modified at the piece that comes just after the inner legs; they made that one piece (well, two, if you count both sides) a little shorter. The group I play most often with seems to drift sharp, but I have never had to push the slide all the way in. That's funny, because the short slide doesn't look all that different - maybe 1/8" or so visually.

[JTJ]

John, my E2 experiences were with .6 sterling silver bell horns. The first one I played in 2012-2013 was actually a loaner from stock and it had come with standard caps and bottoms. The second one, which I bought in 2014 came with the heavy caps and bottoms. Soon after that Adams announced they would only make the E2 in heavier gauge metal.

[miketeachesclass]

John: For a while, and maybe still currently, Adams was making a special E2 model with .6 gauge and a sterling silver bell. It was an interesting combination and produced interestingly different results I believe. I've never played one in person but I've come close by having all the heavy weight caps, buttons, and bottoms put on my E1 SS .6 gauge.

Mike: By no means by saying this am I trying to discredit your findings, but is it possible that because of the openness of the SM4 you used mixed with the openness of the Adams horns that you were flat? I played all the horns at TMEA this year including your exact model horn. E3 in lacquer with short action valves, which I loved btw. I had my girlfriend listen to me back and forth between my horn and all of the display horns Adams had and never once did she notice a major difference in intonation. My E1 typically has between 1/2 inch to 1 inch of main tuning slide pull. The only time I'm flat is in rooms that are in the 60 degree area. this causes me to be about 10-15 cents flat from my normal setup.

In reference to the valve appearance I totally agree, they look a little worn, or even wear funny or not evenly, but my valves are silky smooth and everyone in my studio has drooled over how smooth they are.

I want to make it perfectly clear that my intent isn't to complain about the horn, or about adams as a maker! This is clearly a well made horn, and obviously Adams is a fabulous company.

I did try my BB1 and my 51D in addition to my SM4. I had the same concern about the mouthpiece-horn interaction. In every case, I had the same result. I played the adams until it was fully warm, and I still couldn't bring the pitch up to A=440. I picked up the sterling cold, and it was in the proper range with the slide out probably half an inch. Same with the Willson. I was playing in my basement though, which is cooler than a performance space, temperature-wise.

Again, maybe this particular horn has a quirk, or the slide should be shortened. There are a bunch of variables on this one, including the Short-action valves, which I had zero experience with previously. After playing the Adams for an hour or so, I did get to liking the sound more, though it still lacks some of the bombast I've come to enjoy about the sterling in the low register.

Mike

[MarChant]

This is an interesting piece of the conversation, both for us on the forum and for Adams as a builder. Miel says that the European players generally want longer slides. As with John, my impression was that Europeans would be playing sharper. But it is also possible that the Europeans have a different approach to playing and that causes them to play a given horn sharper than you or I might.

My "short" slide was modified at the piece that comes just after the inner legs; they made that one piece (well, two, if you count both sides) a little shorter. The group I play most often with seems to drift sharp, but I have never had to push the slide all the way in. That's funny, because the short slide doesn't look all that different - maybe 1/8" or so visually.

It certainly is an interesting conversation issue. I am a European brass player, having played trumpet, Tuba and now Euphonium. The only non-european instruments I have played during my career (both amateur and semi-professional) were a Conn cornet, Conn trumpet and Yamaha Euphonium. I have never given tuning much thought. I just tried to play in tune with the rest of the orchestra/ensemble or the piano when playing solos.
So actually I never even realised this was an issue and I am indeed very interested to hear other European players' opinions.

[davewerden]

I should have mentioned this before, and I think I did mention it in my first full review of the Adams in 2012. It is a general principle I've found that in a smaller room or rooms with a low ceiling, a horn with a smaller (more compact) sound will have the advantage when comparing 2 horns. I was not sold on the Adams for the first couple weeks I tried it. I gave myself several days of playing it exclusively, then did a comparison with my Sterling. Immediately the Sterling sounded better to me. But this all done in my basement with a low, acoustic ceiling. Once I took it to my church sanctuary (fairly high ceiling, but lots of soft surfaces and wood, so a good balance) the Adams started to show its stuff. As mentioned earlier in this thread, I found the character of sound very similar to the Sterling, but it had a bit more size in the room. More of the process I went through is described here:

http://www.dwerden.com/forum/entry.p...stom-Euphonium

So you need to get the horn into a large room to see what it can do. Also, be sure you are not forcing the sound, but letting the horn resonate with your playing.

BTW, I went through the same thing many times in the past. So did my section mate Danny Vinson. He was playing a 967 at the time, and for fun tried the CG Band's Willson, comparing the two in a practice room. He thought he'd been missing something, because the Willson sounded better. I have found the same thing in various testing. But when Danny took the two horns up to our concert hall, it was a totally different story. It's not always convenient to do this, but it is necessary for a quality comparison (unless you do only recordings in a small studio or something like that).