Lincolnshire Posy - Would Like Input/Opinions

[K_Aufderhar]

Hello all,

The conductor of my university wind ensemble today stated that he plans to program Grainger's magnum opus, Lincolnshire Posy, on our next concert. Being principal euphonium in the group, I would be tasked with playing the "baritone" part and the attached solos. I realize that Grainger's intention was for this part to be played on an actual British baritone horn and not a euphonium as there is also a separate euphonium part. Knowing this, I would like to 1. be authentic to the composer's wishes and 2. take advantage of the opportunity to use my baritone horn. I would love input from those who have played this part on baritone, or just in general. Should I make the suggestion to my conductor?

Kyle

[davewerden]

I would say to go for the baritone horn on the top part, which is how we did it in the Coast Guard band. I have a British book on scoring for brass band. It describes the roles of baritone and euphonium in that tradition, and those rules match very well with Grainger's score. A few years later I found an article by Fred Fennell that also suggested that treatment. The article was published in the Instrumentalist and later in one of the same publisher's Anthology volumes. You might be able to find it in a music library.

[bbocaner]

I haven't gotten to play the baritone part, but I have played the euphonium part while someone else did it on euphonium, and I have played baritone on a number of other grainger pieces with the same instrumentation.

I have heard second-hand that one prominent educator tells his students to do it on euphonium because that sounds best, but I couldn't disagree more.

It absolutely MUST be done on baritone. Grainger was an amazing orchestrator and knew what he was doing. The blending with the horn section, trombone section, etc. in the baritone part is all over the piece, and it just doesn't work as well on euphonium. Euphonium is the usually the solo melody instrument, and baritone more of a background instrument, so for him to flip the roles around, he must've had a really good reason. If you listen to a folk singer do "the broken token" ( or also sometimes called "a pretty fair maiden" which is the real name for the movement that grainger calls the "brisk young sailor", which is a different fok song alltogether!), you'll understand why he put that melody in the baritone. It just fits.

[bbocaner]

The folk song is sung with a bunch of different melodies. This is the only one I've found on youtube that uses something close to the melody that grainger uses.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1Qr...RzFUA&index=10

This one is kind of close, too... but it's more of a modern interpretation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dn6p1Ak6S6Y

[bbocaner]

Ohh! This one is really good!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgzsI_4Nf18

You can just hear what grainger was thinking by giving the solo to the baritone, when you hear this and imagine how close the folk song he collected must have been to this.

[adrian_quince]

Hi Kyle,

Yes, you absolutely should make the suggestion. While Grainger's brass orchestration is sometimes ambiguous given the rushed nature of the premiere (for instance, the original parts distinguish only haphazardly between trumpets and cornets), it's pretty clear to me from the writing that the Baritone part was intended for British baritone.

For one example of this, listen to the last video Barry posted. Notice the character of the singer's voice in the lower parts of the line. It thins just a little and takes on a slightly raspy quality. Very common for a vocal baritone. Grainger sets that line in concert Bb, with the lowest note being Bb2 and the highest being Eb4. The euphonium gets mellow and tuba-like in the lower part of that line, while the baritone is much closer to what a vocalist would sound like.

In fact, the baritone part contains much more of the vocal material than the euphonium part. In many spots where the two parts play together, the euphonium part seems more like a cello than a voice in character. In addition to some specific spots like above, it's the complete difference in conception between the parts that really convinces me.

-----------------

@Barry, great finds with those videos!

[RickF]

What a masterpiece "Lincolnshire Posy" is! The Palm Beach Winds were going to do this, until our guest conductor took ill and the concert cancelled. I hope you've seen the excellent instructional video put together by the U.S. Navy Band with Frederick Fennell conducting. If not, here's that link:

Frederick Fennell rehearses Lincolnshire Posy with the U.S. Navy Band

[RickF]

I just spoke with my grandson who got to play Lincolnshire Posy (all 6 mvmnnts) with his H.S. band (Enloe Arts & Science HS in Raleigh, NC) last week. This is an excellent H.S. band. He said his dir asked him to play the solo with a baritone rather than his euph (YEP-641). He used a 'bent bell' baritone. He also mentioned that the dir gave him the hand a few times as he sounded louder than usual with a front facing bell and smaller bore horn. I forget his director's name but I understand he's very good and particular about their performances.

[K_Aufderhar]

Just as an update:

I do thank everybody for the input. Those recordings of the folk songs are fascinating: Grainger's ear for color and orchestration was second to none; I can see why he scored a baritone for these parts rather than a euphonium. Also, yes, I have seen the Navy Band rehearsal video. Fred Fennell is a joy to watch.. it's amazing to see his passion and love for this piece and the unadulterated happiness it brings him. I especially love when he sings "Lord Melbourne" to the band!

Also, regarding my wind ensemble, my conductor was thrilled when I mentioned I owned an actual baritone and suggested we use it. Our first read of the piece is tomorrow. It's an all-British music concert and we are sharing the program with our Symphonic Winds. The other two pieces the wind ensemble is doing are Holst's Moorside March and Jacob's Flag of Stars. With the baritone, this'll be a truly authentic (and rarely heard) rendition of the Posy!

[Snorlax]

The Indiana Wind Symphony played Lincolnshire Posy last year with yours truly doing the baritone part on a Yamaha 621 3+1 non-compensating baritone and 6 1/2 AL mouthpiece. I'll see if I can find a recording. The director showed some of those original vocal versions before we played the piece, and it added quite a bit of understanding for both the audience and for the performers.

The edition we played had a wrong note in the bass-clef baritone part in a solo passage--an F instead of an E-flat (probably a failure to un-transpose properly from the TC version). I didn't know the piece all that well before the IWS had its first rehearsal on it, and the entire band gasped en masse and about ground to a halt when they heard that note coming out of my bell at the rehearsal. ;-) They all KNEW the piece!!

[JTJ]

I just spoke with my grandson who got to play Lincolnshire Posy (all 5 mvmnnts) with his H.S. band (Enloe Arts & Science HS in Raleigh, NC) last week. This is an excellent H.S. band. He said his dir asked him to play the solo with a baritone rather than his euph (YEP-641). He used a 'bent bell' baritone. He also mentioned that the dir gave him the hand a few times as he sounded louder than usual with a front facing bell and smaller bore horn. I forget his director's name but I understand he's very good and particular about their performances.

The director at Enloe H.S. is Robert Hunter, who is a trumpet player, was a past conductor of the Triangle Wind Ensemble and was an Assistant Conductor of the Triangle Brass Band. He understands the euphonium and baritone, loves their sound, and is a very fine conductor -- it is not surprising that he would go for the most authentic interpretation of the piece.

[RickF]

Thanks John,
I thought you knew him.

[Pnogard]

The edition we played had a wrong note in the bass-clef baritone part in a solo passage--an F instead of an E-flat (probably a failure to un-transpose properly from the TC version).

I had this same experience, pretty prominent publisher, too.

[carbogast]

I had this same experience, pretty prominent publisher, too.

Do you recall where this occurs? I may be reading it in next week - thanks! In any event I am warned! - Carroll

[K_Aufderhar]

It occurs in the solo in Movement 4, "The Brisk Young Sailor." The highest note in the solo should be an Eb, not an F, as notated. It only occurs in the 2010 Fennell edition, in the bass clef baritone part. I think it is correct in the treble clef version. In any case, the highest note of the solo should be a concert Eb.