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Thread: Gap - Adjustable Gap Receiver - No Gap

  1. #21
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Central North Carolina
    Posts
    2,039
    The Kanstul shop will do this for you (and replate the mouthpiece). But they need to know what to turn it down to. So typically they need a mouthpiece with the shank size/taper that you want, and then they can turn your other one to those dimensions. Last time I had this done a few years ago I think it cost me $50 (plus shipping).
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (Denis Wick 3XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba, modified Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K9/112 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    West Palm Beach, FL
    Posts
    3,262
    Quote Originally Posted by davewerden View Post
    (snip)

    Wide Gap (mouthpiece shank may be shorter)

    • More Air Resistance
    • Less Intonation Control
    • Hard Slotting
    • Less Flexibility
    • Need Less Aperture Control


    ...emphasis below is mine

    Medium Gap (Recommended)

    • Medium Air Resistance
    • Balanced Slotting & Flexibility


    Small or Zero Gap (mouthpiece shank may be long)

    • Less or No Air Resistance
    • Considerable Intonation Control
    • Loose Slotting
    • Incredible Flexibility
    • Need More Aperture Control
    This discussion has been very interesting. Lately I've been having trouble with interval jumps in the upper register where I was chipping notes. I switched from G&W Kadja to the stock mpc for the M5050 BT-16 (by Demondrae Thurman). Much better slotting. The Kadja shank seems to be just a bit longer so maybe there is little or no gap. Slotting seems much better.
    Rick Floyd
    Miraphone 5050 - Warburton Brandon Jones sig mpc
    YEP-641S (on long-term loan to grandson)
    Doug Elliott - 102 rim; I-cup; I-9 shank


    "Always play with a good tone, never louder than lovely, never softer than supported." - author unknown.
    Symphonic Band of the Palm Beaches
    Russian Christmas Music (Alfred Reed)
    El Cumbanchero (Rafael Hernández) cell phone video

  3. #23
    I tried various mouthpieces with my Miraphone M5050 when I got it a couple years ago. I, as did Rick above, ended up using the Thurman signature mpc that came with the horn and liked it so much, that I also ordered the same mpc with gold plating (I have used this mouthpiece for a couple years, including on my Wessex euphonium now while I await the new Adams). This mouthpiece has worked extremely well for me, so perhaps there was something to the specifications of this particular "signature" mouthpiece mated with this particular horn (Miraphone) - the right gap (or at least a very satisfactory gap) maybe being one of the factors, as I found slotting to be excellent with it. Slotting on the Wessex is not as easy with the Thurman mpc as it was on the Miraphone, but it could be partially for the rather obvious reason that the Wessex is a different horn with different leadpipe/receiver parameters.
    John Morgan
    The U.S. Army Band (Pershing's Own) 1971-1976
    Adams E3 Custom Series Euphonium, Wessex EP-100 Dolce Euphonium, 1956 B&H Imperial Euphonium
    Adams TB1 Tenor Trombone, Yamaha YBL-822G Bass Trombone
    Wessex TE-360 Bombino Eb Tuba
    Rapid City New Horizons & Municipal Bands (Euphonium)
    Black Hills Symphony Orchestra (Bass Trombone), Powder River Symphony, Gillette, WY (Tenor Trombone)
    Black Hills Brass Quintet (Tuba)

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    156
    I tried an Adams a few years ago and I needed to have the receiver AT LEAST 4 or 5 turns out because I couldn't access the upper range of the instrument (that was an E1 .55 thickness) at all when the gap was 'closed'. the instrument also resonated better.
    The pro of such an adjustable receiver is being able to fine-tune response and tone a bit without having to play uncomfortably or having to use a different mouthpiece because your main one doesn't work on a particular instrument.
    The con I can think of is that you have to remember how many turns you want it to be unscrewed just in case someone else changes it for whatever reason.
    Willson 2960TA Celebration
    1979 Boosey & Hawkes Sovereign (Globe Stamp)
    Mouthpiece: Denis Wick SM4

  5. Within the last two weeks I´ve experimentetd with the gap. Gap size is hard to measure on my Euph because leadpipe and receiver are flush. But it seems to be very small or zero. The mouthpiece shank is pretty far in. Though I can´t compare it to another Euphonium MP receiver. The next Instrument from Finschhafen may be found in Lae (90 km from here) or even Port Moresby? Anyway; I used three sorts of sticky tape: Thin 3M Giftwrap Tape, black insulation tape and fairly thick red insulation tape. Results:
    One layer of 3M brought the shank 1mm further out. Can´t feel a difference in blowing the horn. It feels different in a more psychological way: "Uh, there is some plastic between horn and MP... don´t like it..."
    Two layers of 3M, shank 2mm further out: First impression was: "stiff". Like a bread dough on the stiff side. You like to add a bit of water to make it more smooth. High range was not so easy too.
    Black insulation tape: shank 4mm out: My Euph lost to be agile, lithe. It didn´t respond or speek to me.
    Red insulation tape: shank 6mm out: Not my instrument. The horn felt stiff, formal, forced. Tone quality was thin, airy, coated, hoarse... ugly.
    Back to normal: What a relief! The horn came back to me, lost all the stubbornness. I played an hour on Bach´s Solo Suites and enjoyed not to feel any obstacles or gaps between Euphonium and me.
    The experiment shows me: Putting tape around the MP shank changes playing my Euphonium a lot. Is it because of the wider gap? Is it because of damping through the tape? I wrote an Email to Paul Riggett and Gebr. Alexander/Mainz (because I´m about to buy the 151 Bariton Tuba) about their opinion. Have not got an answer yet and suspect they rely only on their profound experience.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    West Palm Beach, FL
    Posts
    3,262
    Hi Art,

    Not sure but it could be the dampening effect with tape added to your shank. I tried adding tape to the shank of my
    Kadja mpc and it didn't seem to help in any way. I think there needs to be a solid connection between mpc and horn. Reminds me of the LefreQue sound bridge that is supposed to help.
    Rick Floyd
    Miraphone 5050 - Warburton Brandon Jones sig mpc
    YEP-641S (on long-term loan to grandson)
    Doug Elliott - 102 rim; I-cup; I-9 shank


    "Always play with a good tone, never louder than lovely, never softer than supported." - author unknown.
    Symphonic Band of the Palm Beaches
    Russian Christmas Music (Alfred Reed)
    El Cumbanchero (Rafael Hernández) cell phone video

  7. #27
    Good thought, Rick! I had not mentally related this to the sound bridge, but that makes perfect sense.
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    YouTube: dwerden
    Facebook: davewerden
    Twitter: davewerden
    Instagram: davewerdeneuphonium

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    El Paso, Texas
    Posts
    383
    Quote Originally Posted by TheJH View Post
    I tried an Adams a few years ago and I needed to have the receiver AT LEAST 4 or 5 turns out because I couldn't access the upper range of the instrument (that was an E1 .55 thickness) at all when the gap was 'closed'. the instrument also resonated better.
    The pro of such an adjustable receiver is being able to fine-tune response and tone a bit without having to play uncomfortably or having to use a different mouthpiece because your main one doesn't work on a particular instrument.
    The con I can think of is that you have to remember how many turns you want it to be unscrewed just in case someone else changes it for whatever reason.
    It may have been mentioned or noticed in some peoples research..... but even Miel Adams stated most people settle around 4 or more turns. It's been so long since I set mine in place, but I remember mine being at least 4, and probably around 6 or 7 for my personal taste and setup.
    Adams E1 SS, Gold Brass Body .6mm DE Euph N103 Jcup, J9 shank
    Meinl Weston 2141 Eb Tuba PT 84

  9. Have a look at the new Willson Saxhorn. It has a "BEM mouthpiece adapter ". I do not know how it works but they say it Individually adjusts the gap between end of mouthpiece taper and leadpipe. Interesting feature.

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Varese,Italy
    Posts
    150
    Hi guys, in the last month i wanted to deepen the discussion of the gap ( as far as I am concerned). The gap should be the distance between the end of the backbore and the start of the leadpipe, where the receiver is welded on the leadpipe and therefore a "step" equal to the thickness of the leadpipe is created. Now, if I understand correctly, this generates an air turbulence more or less significant in relation to the increase or decrease of the gap, therefore more gap=more air resistance, less flexibility, less intonation control, while less gap=less air resistance, more flexibility and more control. In the trombone there is no welded receiver, but the mouthpiece is insert directly into the leadpipe, therefore no gap (0gap), while in euphonium and brasses in general, this gap exist ( but in my JP 374 baritone the receiver is welded to the leadpipe perfectly connected, so as not to leave any steps, but a perfectly smooth internal wall (0gap? I think it is a Sterling prerogative). Now, on my Prestige, looking inside the receiver, there is a double step with a very thin thickness ( between the two teeth there is a space of 2,5-3mm) but only on about half the diameter ( like a job done wrong). Now I have two almost identical K&G 3D mouthpieces and a third K&G 2,5E slightly dissimilar, I thinned the sten of the old 3D and the 2,5E in order to reduce the gap and make a comparison. So the original gap, which was 10mm for all 3 mps, was reduced to 5mm for the 2,5E annd 2,5mm for the old 3D. Ignoring the slightly different tone, due to different profiles and depht of the cups, I have not noticed significant differences, if anything a very slight resistance with the smaller gap but nothing more. So, to conclude, I think that when, in the coming months, I will order a Adams E3 will be without AGR. After reading the various opinions about Adams euphoniums in this forum, my Adams custom will be configured as follow:
    E3 0,7 thickness silver plated, no AGR, key water only on main slide, vented valves, heavy cup on 4th and mother of pearls inlays buttons. I haven't decided yet whether to have a trigger: on Adams it shouldn't necessary, but in some cases it might be useful. My idea would be to order it with a trigger an an additional main slide to put in place of the original one when I need a lighter instrument to play standing or in marching services where the baritone is not suitable. Any suggestions?
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by franz; 01-09-2020 at 03:29 AM.
    Besson Prestige 2052,3D K&G mouthpiece;JP373 baritone,T4C K&G mouthpiece;Bach 42GO trombone,T4C K&G mouthpiece

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