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Thread: Gap - Adjustable Gap Receiver - No Gap

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by ghmerrill View Post
    Fits perfectly in, in the sense that the transition between receiver and leadpipe is smooth?
    correct

    But then you still don't have a smooth transition between the end of the shank and the leadpipe. You don't actually have a "gap", but there might be similar turbulence effects.
    Yep. It's not necessarily better.
    --
    Barry

  2. Trying to summarize in short the MP/receiver/leadpipe situation on my Sterling:
    - transition between receiver and leadpipe is smooth. Same diameter of both where they meet for the eye inside the receiver. I assume the above mentioned "grove".
    - the end of the shank (SM4X) rises up into the leadpipe about 5 mm / 0.2 inch
    - no wobble, snug fit of the MP, not too far in
    - looks like the leadpipe takes over and continues the taper of the receiver for around 13 mm / 0.5 inch
    - conclusion: there is no gap, but a small "step" to the leadpipe due to the thickness of the mp rim at the end of the shank

    Why not ask Paul Riggett about the receiver design? Who could help me with a working email-address of Paul? (Iīm not on facebook nor twitter)

  3. #13
    Here's my take on this after reading all the interesting comments: there are two tapers coming together; the AGR provides an opportunity to fine tune the acoustical impedance at the interface (which may be frequency dependent) to personal preferences. Most equipment packages provide a very good match right out of the box. As Barry points out, there are a variety of ways to mate a mouthpiece to a lead pipe; good quality equipment should have negligible problems caused by fit or machining artifacts. An alternative to the AGR is a custom shank such as Doug Elliot offers... making me think this might be my next mouthpiece experiment.

    - Carroll

  4. Hi all!
    I was with Miel Adams past summer and I've asked the reason of the receiver and how to use it. He tolds me that each mouthpiece requires a different distance to the lead pipe, and he was helping to to adjust my horn with my mouthpiece. What I found is that with a specific mouthpiece, there is a setup where the articulation seems much more easy. You feel that "it is the point", because everything seems easier.
    Adams E2 Silver Plated, .8mm GW Kadja
    (Ex trombone player: bach 42 and bach 36)

  5. My B&S CC Tuba too has no "bump" at the end of the receiver and beginning of the mouthpipe tube. Instead there is a counterbore in the mouthpiece receiver which allows for the wall thickness of the leadpipe and a flush transition.

    So there is not a physical „gap“ but a point where the taper in the receiver converges with the taper of the leadpipe. Unquestionably there must be a point where the taper stops getting smaller and where the tube starts getting larger. (I presume that we have a conical bore in the leadpipe of our Euphoniums. too. Of course(?) this is not the case on a trumpet because of the cylindrical shape of the leadpipe. But on a trumpet too there are two tapers - conical and cylindrical, gap in between - that meet.)

    Dealing with a gap on the tubas and euphoniums without a „bump“ at the transition of receiver and leadpipe in my opinion means:
    Setting a mouthpiece farer back or closer to that point of the smallest diameter in the receiver/leadpipe unit.

    On my horn my mouthpiece seems to be pretty close to this point where the two tapers meet. I tested my mouthpiece with layers of scotch tape to get it farer back from this point. I donīt like it. The response of the euphonium actually is different. It feels like a bad embouchure day. Perhaps this is not because of the changed position but because of the Scoth tape and/or the now thicker wall in the back end of the mouthpiece and a more significant bump in the bore? Or is it a reverse-venturi-effect? Or is it just because I am not accustomed to this mouthpiece position? Lots of questions to be answered. Do you know of somebody who has written a dissertation on the issue?

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Art Lewis View Post
    My B&S CC Tuba too has no "bump" at the end of the receiver and beginning of the mouthpipe tube. Instead there is a counterbore in the mouthpiece receiver which allows for the wall thickness of the leadpipe and a flush transition.
    This seems to be a common factor with the B&S Markneukirchen factory where post-2007 Bessons are also made. I'd be interested to check out a modern Meinl-Weston tuba to see if it had the same thing.

    So there is not a physical „gap“ but a point where the taper in the receiver converges with the taper of the leadpipe. Unquestionably there must be a point where the taper stops getting smaller and where the tube starts getting larger.
    right. well, the receiver gets smaller, but the mouthpiece backbore gets larger. And the leadpipe usually only gets larger. Usually the mouthpiece goes almost all of the way into the receiver, so at most you'd have a few mm where it's still getting smaller, however this few mm is right after the big step up in diameter from the end of the mouthpiece. And my theory is that the "gap" is more about marrying the expanding taper of the mouthpiece backbore with the expanding taper of the leadpipe at just the right spot, and that this little section of contracting bore at the very end of the receiver is relatively unimportant.

    (I presume that we have a conical bore in the leadpipe of our Euphoniums. too. Of course(?) this is not the case on a trumpet because of the cylindrical shape of the leadpipe. But on a trumpet too there are two tapers - conical and cylindrical, gap in between - that meet.)
    Trumpets have very conical leadpipes, too. You can actually see it from the outside.
    --
    Barry

  7. I am not a fan of adjustible gap receivers, either. To me, it is just too much stuff in the way. However, it has been demonstrated for me, and I have demonstrated it to others, that different gaps can produce different playing characteristics with the same mouthpiece and horn combination. I know I'm restating the obvious next, but it does bear repeating, since all receivers and mouthpiece shanks do have manufacturing tolerances, assembly tolerances, and wear over time.

    If the relationship between the mouthpiece and the receiver is comparatively large shank and smaller receiver, so that the mouthpiece doesn't go in as far as it needs to, then obviously one solution is to check to see if the receiver was reamed properly coming out of the factory, and adjust as necessary, a speck at a time, until the "sweet" spot balance between the characteristics listed above for the preference of the player is achieved.

    If the relationship between the mouthpiece and the receiver is comparatively small shank and larger receiver, then the receiver should be checked to see if it is either worn, or was, again, not installed or reamed properly at the factory. Without resorting to "Reeves Sleeves" to make the mouthpiece shank larger, the player will have to decide if replacing the receiver is cost effective for the situation.

    To experiment with gap, I use a very low-tech method: scotch tape or masking tape around the mouthpiece shank. Obviously, a person has to be careful to not let the tape get loose in the receiver and cause its own problems, and a little goes a long way with its effect on gap. But on a forty year old trumpet I purchased last year that had a great tone but wobbly intonation the worn receiver was diagnosed this way. With the addition of one neat simple layer of tape around the mouthpiece shank the desired intonation characteristics came back and everything centered very well indeed, with just the right width of slotting to make the horn flexible without being sloppy. Frankly, at less than a dollar a roll for masking tape, and since I don't play trumpet that often, it is not cost effective for me to replace the receiver on my trumpet, but the tape does just fine.

    Other players' mileage and cost/benefit analysis will vary. I always encourage non-invasive experimentation.

  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by iiipopes View Post
    I am not a fan of adjustible gap receivers, either. To me, it is just too much stuff in the way. However, it has been demonstrated for me, and I have demonstrated it to others, that different gaps can produce different playing characteristics with the same mouthpiece and horn combination. I know I'm restating the obvious next, but it does bear repeating, since all receivers and mouthpiece shanks do have manufacturing tolerances, assembly tolerances, and wear over time.
    I should have mentioned that you can order an Adams with a standard receiver if you like.

    Quote Originally Posted by iiipopes View Post
    If the relationship between the mouthpiece and the receiver is comparatively large shank and smaller receiver, so that the mouthpiece doesn't go in as far as it needs to, then obviously one solution is to check to see if the receiver was reamed properly coming out of the factory, and adjust as necessary, a speck at a time, until the "sweet" spot balance between the characteristics listed above for the preference of the player is achieved.
    Of course, that might be exactly what you do NOT want the next time you buy a mouthpiece of the same or different model/brand.

    In that particular scenario, I would have a shop turn down the mouthpiece shank, not the receiver. You get to the same result without risking making your horn's receiver wrong for other mouthpieces.
    Last edited by davewerden; 03-14-2016 at 06:47 AM.
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    YouTube: dwerden
    Facebook: davewerden
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  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by iiipopes View Post
    To experiment with gap, I use a very low-tech method: scotch tape or masking tape around the mouthpiece shank. Obviously, a person has to be careful to not let the tape get loose in the receiver and cause its own problems, and a little goes a long way with its effect on gap.
    If you look in the right places on The Trombone Forum, you'll see some fairly detailed descriptions of how some people (including some professionals) adopt a similar approach with mouthpieces and trombone lead pipes and claim noticeable results. Rather than scotch or masking tape, the preferred medium is Teflon (plumber's) tape. Not as convenient, perhaps, as an adjustable gap receiver, but easy to do, and once you've got it set right on a mouthpiece/lead pipe combination, then you just need to replace it at reasonable intervals, which is pretty easy.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (Denis Wick 3XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba, modified Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K9/112 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  10. Quote Originally Posted by davewerden View Post
    In that particular scenario, I would have a shop turn down the mouthpiece shank, not the receiver. You get to the same result without risking making your horn's receiver wrong for other mouthpieces.
    Good point, if the receiver is to factory "spec" to begin with.

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