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Thread: New Buzzing in the horn

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
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    Rosemount, MN; Eau Claire, WI
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    New Buzzing in the horn

    I just cleaned my horn the other day with my QHR (quick horn rinse), then took a brush and snake to clean off gunk that it didn't get. Oiled, and re-greased my slides, etc... Then started playing today, and there is a BIG vibration when ever I play something with the 3rd valve compressed, and I can't hear anywhere specific where its coming from, I just hear a vibration in my sound when I play. I have no idea whats wrong with it, and all my caps are screwed on tight, and checked that it wasn't my spit-valve.

    However, I noticed this, and I can't recall if it's ever been like this before (see picture). As you see the 3rd valve isn't quite level with the other valves, however, I don't believe this is the issue
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Has anyone ever experience a vibration in there sound associated with a certain valve before?

    Also, if this has anything to do with it, i'm using mead springs
    Matthew Strom
    Yamaha YEP 842
    Giddeon & Webster GW-103

  2. #2
    Join Date
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    Sounds to me like it could be a spring not seated just right. I can't see anything different in the picture as it's not very clear.
    Rick Floyd
    Miraphone 5050 - Warburton BJ / RF mpc
    YEP-641S (recently sold)
    Doug Elliott - 102 rim; I-cup; I-9 shank


    "Always play with a good tone, never louder than lovely, never softer than supported." - author unknown.
    Symphonic Band of the Palm Beaches
    El Cumbanchero (Raphael Hernandez, arr. Naohiro Iwai)
    Chorale and Shaker Dance
    (John Zdechlik)

  3. #3
    I see a difference in height, but that probably is not related to the noise. However, the 3 valve tops should align. If they don't, one of 3 things could be going on:

    1. You don't have the same size pads on top of the pistons.
    2. One of the valve caps (which hold the piston in) is not screwed down, but those look level.
    3. The piston's stem is not fully screwed in.
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    Alliance Mouthpiece (DC3)
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  4. #4
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by davewerden View Post
    I see a difference in height, but that probably is not related to the noise. However, the 3 valve tops should align. If they don't, one of 3 things could be going on:

    1. You don't have the same size pads on top of the pistons.
    2. One of the valve caps (which hold the piston in) is not screwed down, but those look level.
    3. The piston's stem is not fully screwed in.
    4. (Maybe a variation of 2) One of the valve caps is cross-threaded.

    Try switching the springs around in the pistons and see of that makes a difference. If it doesn't, then it's probably not the spring.

    Some other possibilities are

    5. Your horn is a Besson or a Besson clone and you dropped one of the rubber spring dampers out of the piston bottom and onto the floor. (Not true for your horn in particular, I think.)
    6. When you replaced (or removed) the springs, you bent one.
    7. There's something inside the horn that is causing the vibration (a little loose piece of solder, for example).
    8. One of the valve guides is vibrating. Maybe you got it out of whack or out of alignment in the process of disassembling and reassembling a piston. This is fairly common among players who are inexperienced in disassembling the piston finger button, stem, and top pads on Yamahas. That plastic body on the valve guide has to go on so bump in its underside fits into a small hole in the piston top -- which prevents it from rotating back and forth as you play. Most people who haven't fooled with them previously and haven't looked carefully don't realize this.
    9. Somehow in the process of cleaning you managed to loosen a solder joint.
    10. It's not really your horn that's vibrating. It's something else in the room or nearby. (I have had this happen and it drove me nuts for a while. Wasn't the horn at all.)

    It's unlikely to be the spring if it's only happening when the spring is compressed. But what COULD be happening is that it's ANOTHER spring that's vibrating on those notes.

    With a careful approach to trying various notes and a "laying on of hands" (and maybe having someone else to listen to where the vibration is really coming from, you should be able to isolate it. Then you can figure out how to fix it.

    To me, the second valve button looks higher than the others. Have you actually laid a straight-edge across those to see which one is out?
    Last edited by ghmerrill; 02-07-2016 at 08:21 PM.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  5. #5
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    Thanks for all the responses so far! I'm going to try to talk to my professor tomorrow and get his input on the situation, however I appreciate all your thoughts and will take them into consideration. I'll try playing around with some of your suggestions.

    However, I'm afraid I have a feeling I might have done something that warrants it being sent to the shop... It could be possible I had the water pressure from the quick horn rinse too high and damaged something causing a weird vibration from the 3rd valve/valve slide.

    Also, it seems I might have to have somebody look at my horn for alignment of the valves (felt pads?) either way, as Dave Werden was talking about. Maybe this is a spring related issue, possibly with the wrong spring in the valve? I know I remember that mead springs are supposed to be valve specific.

    Well, what ever I find out, I'll keep this thread updated!
    Last edited by strommj; 02-07-2016 at 11:26 PM.
    Matthew Strom
    Yamaha YEP 842
    Giddeon & Webster GW-103

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by strommj View Post
    It could be possible I had the water pressure from the quick horn rinse too high and damaged something causing a weird vibration from the 3rd valve/valve slide.
    I would not lose any sleep about that. I have put much higher pressure through my various horns than the QHR is capable of generating. And before it gets to your horn the water is going through a plastic and then rubber tube. If they can take the pressure then your horn surely can.

    Quote Originally Posted by strommj View Post
    Also, it seems I might have to have somebody look at my horn for alignment of the valves (felt pads?) either way, as Dave Werden was talking about. Maybe this is a spring related issue, possibly with the wrong spring in the valve? I know I remember that mead springs are supposed to be valve specific.
    You could still look at things yourself (before or after someone else does). This is all logical stuff.

    First the valve springs have no affect on the alignment on the row of finger buttons. That is controlled by the padding on top of the piston, the position of the top cap, and whether the stem and top button are securely screwed in place. Even if you did not take the piston assembly apart, the stem could still have worked partially loose. But the most likely problem is the pads on top of the pistons. Do they look similar to the pads under the buttons? If so you may have mixed them up. If you did not take the pads out of the horn, then it either happened in the past or they came that way (not likely).

    Gary made a good point about buzzing coming from the room (or the horn vibrating against a button, which is a problem I have with one shirt of mine). But it is really, really common to have the spring seated improperly in the bottom of the valve after you take a piston out for oiling. When putting the piston back in, have the horn upright. I even move mine around a bit to let the spring settle in its groove before inserting the piston. Anyway, you can prove or rule this out very easily. Take the 3rd spring out and then play the horn. The valve will be down, and if there is no vibration, then the spring was at fault.
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    Alliance Mouthpiece (DC3)
    YouTube: dwerden
    Facebook: davewerden
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  7. #7
    Try this: Take out the 3 top pistons and compare the stem lengths and the pads under the cap. They should all be identical. Now, this happened to me; after getting my horn back from a shop, the horn was functioning, but sounded terrible. Turns out the 4th valve stem, which is slightly longer, was swapped with the 3rd.

    -Carroll

  8. #8
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    I agree with Dave on all those points. In addition, if you haven't done this sort of thing before and aren't being careful, it's possible to bend one of the springs so that it's no longer straight from top to bottom. That can cause it to hit the side of the valve casing and make sounds. I've caused this problem in the past myself when I thought "Hmmm. That spring seems a little weak. I'll just stretch it out a bit." I don't try that trick any longer.

    I strongly encourage you to do as much investigation and experimentation on this as you can since this won't be the last time something minor goes wrong with your instrument. I'm always surprised at how many players (including university teachers and professionals) have no clue (and no interest) in the simple mechanical things about their instruments and either have to go running to a repair tech any time something minor comes up or (more likely) just live with it for years. I know of one local college professor who plays at least semi-professionally and owns a nice Miraphone CC tuba (which he's had since graduate school). It's a 5-valve, but the fifth valve hasn't worked in years. Rather than take it to get it fixed or to try some simple things himself, he's just been playing it (for quite a few years) as a 4-valve horn. What a waste. Go figure.

    I'm also astonished at how few tuba and trombone players are totally incapable of replacing their rotary valve bumpers and aligning the valves. This also holds true for people replacing their own piston valve corks/felts and aligning the valves. Aligning piston valves without a scope can be a bit tricky, but people have been doing it for over a century, and it's not rocket science. Just observation and measurement and maybe a simple tool you can make yourself. I'd rather spend a half hour on that than make a 1-hour round trip and then wait several days (at best) to have someone else fix it. But different strokes for different folks, I guess.

    (I do feel a bit differently about woodwind maintenance and repair. That's quite a pain and takes a lot more effort and care.)
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by carbogast View Post
    Try this: Take out the 3 top pistons and compare the stem lengths and the pads under the cap. They should all be identical. Now, this happened to me; after getting my horn back from a shop, the horn was functioning, but sounded terrible. Turns out the 4th valve stem, which is slightly longer, was swapped with the 3rd.
    YES! I forgot about that, but the very same thing happened to me once when my Sterling had gone in for a cleaning.
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    Alliance Mouthpiece (DC3)
    YouTube: dwerden
    Facebook: davewerden
    Twitter: davewerden
    Instagram: davewerdeneuphonium

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Central North Carolina
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    Another argument for doing your own work.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

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