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Thread: lefreQue Plates???

  1. #21
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    El Paso, Texas
    Posts
    383
    Yes, put some clear scotch tape and it fixes it with no effect of results.

    I got some at TMEA this year for the mouthpiece to lead-pipe connection. I have mixed feelings about them. The first thing I noticed as several have stated is the boost in feedback. I also noticed what seemed to be a boost in the focus of the tone. Articulations are clearer with the same effort, and range was more even but added more resistance, similar to what happened when I added the heavy weight caps to the horn. This was good to a point, and then I started building my endurance up tp a higher point and they became almost unusable for my setup. Maybe it would work if I was using a more open mouthpiece with less focus, IDK. But even when I was using it and I play tested them in the recital hall after a dress rehearsal, I noticed little to no difference in the quality of the tone I heard, but it was less flexible and less vibrant of a sound. It also seems to make my sound quieter. Upper register requires much more effort. Low register is more projecting, but restrict the range.

    So to sum it all up, I got a lot of technical advantages from it, but as soon as you want to be expressive, it makes it harder to do so. It makes everything sound kinda generic to me. Keep in mind I'm playing an ADAMS and the adjustable receiver may be causing it not to work as well.
    Adams E1 SS, Gold Brass Body .6mm DE Euph N103 Jcup, J9 shank
    Meinl Weston 2141 Eb Tuba PT 84

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    191
    These things seem somewhat familiar to what my former Tuba professor, Hendrik-Jan Renes, was experimenting with 15 years ago.

    He did it in collaboration with Thein, already mentioned in the other discussion. He put some kind of magnetic (or otherwise sticky) pads on certain spots of the instrument, altering response, projection of the tone etc.

    He also designed and produced (with Thein) some kind of tube that would go inside the leadpipe/receiver to help focus the tone. I have used one of those on my B&S Tuba and I really noticed a difference there. Never used the pads though.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    El Paso, Texas
    Posts
    383
    While working with him at TMEA, he actually said putting a magnet at the end of the bell seems to have a positive effect on projection. Didn't get to try it but so he says.
    Adams E1 SS, Gold Brass Body .6mm DE Euph N103 Jcup, J9 shank
    Meinl Weston 2141 Eb Tuba PT 84

  4. #24
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Truro, Cornwall, UK
    Posts
    111
    I must admit that I have had a look at these, not with any view to buying them or having any interest in their perceived benefits, but merely to see how many of Steven Mead's associates and acolytes are buying into it. I would suggest that all of his new Besson Prestige playing pupils, on their SM3Xs, and their bespoke springs are now using them and reporting their playing is better than ever. Maybe they work, maybe they don't but I have little faith in anything that is reported as being the next best thing, especially when the endorsee has many products to sell. If you read the British magazines the Prestige is apparently the best euphonium on the market, whereas my experience with having three of them (all repaired, refinished and ultimately replaced under warranty) within a very short space of time and no end of finish or mechanical problems indicates they are not a very good product at all.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    El Paso, Texas
    Posts
    383
    I mention this to plays devils advocate... I don't know how much i really like mine on my horns(tuba/euph) but my girlfriend plays flute quite well and has a set of plates for her instrument and they make a huge difference on the clarity of tone and articulations especially. For her they also make her sound project more. But for my horns they seem to quite they sound, they do reduce some of the ambient airyness, which is maybe why him and students like it so much if it gets rid of the wick fuzz, and changes the tone slightly, but idk how much I really like it yet.
    Adams E1 SS, Gold Brass Body .6mm DE Euph N103 Jcup, J9 shank
    Meinl Weston 2141 Eb Tuba PT 84

  6. #26
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Truro, Cornwall, UK
    Posts
    111
    I have never had a problem with having breathiness to my sound - it is moving air after all! It is another tone colour available to the player. My own personal belief is that these plates add mass to the instrument in "critically important" areas, and this revelation comes after years of uk manufacturer's trying to make instruments lighter. In the UK the Globe Sovereigns are the euphonium royalty and I hear a great deal about build quality and sound - the cynic in me thinks that B&H probably got the resonance issues right 40 years and these new devices are merely a different way of acheiving what had already been acheived.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Indianapolis area
    Posts
    1,003
    Well, it appears that they have taken my advice ! https://www.lefreque.com/how-to-use/spectral-analysis

    To make the experiment complete, however, they should run a spectral analysis of: (list below not in order)
    1. A simple $2 piece of similarly-shaped metal in the same location (to isolate effects of the device itself vs. any added mass)
    2. A lead or similar weight spanning the distance the device covered by the device (to isolate effects of the device vs. any added mass)
    3. Another player, same setup (to isolate effects of the player)
    4. Same player, different instrument (to isolate effects of the instrument)
    5. Several trials with/without device with player BLINDFOLDED (to isolate any change in player behavior caused by knowledge of the presence/absence of the device)
    6. A test with each of the three types of metal the device comes in. (to try to determine if the three metals contribute to predictable/consistent results)
    7. It's also necessary to see how the above factors INTERACT with one another.

    To infer causation, we need to see three factors present:
    1. SEQUENCING: If A causes B, A must precede B. Not a problem here. A=put the device on or take it off. B=the sound of the instrument.
    2. CORRELATION: If A causes B, then A and B must move together. Again, *probably* not a problem here. Evidently SOMETHING happens when the device is added to an instrument. But see #3 below.
    3. ABSENCE OF OTHER CAUSAL FACTORS: This is the big problem here. The test they ran with the piccolo player indicated SOME change in THAT INSTRUMENT'S response to the device when being played by THAT PERFORMER, who KNEW whether the device was absent or present. The anechoic chamber, however, did isolate room effects...but who plays in an anechoic chamber, and who says the results produced in an anechoic chamber will be desirable in a reverberant space?

    So--the test answers one specific--and limited--question, but raises many more questions than the simple one it answers. I'm envisioning some kind of Graeco-Latin Square design to block for factors other than the device, but that would be unwieldy, since there are so many factors other than presence of the device that could contribute to changed tone, and all the factors interact with one another.

    It's tempting to take a "physical science" approach with this since it's dealing with waveforms. Generally speaking, experiments in the physical sciences are easier to replicate, and replication is one way to confirm results. The buzzphrase is "Ceteris Paribus," all other things held the same.

    I view this more as a "social science" experiment because it involves human interaction with an environment. In the social sciences, where humans are a unit of analysis, replication is extremely difficult, if not impossible.
    Last edited by Snorlax; 05-25-2016 at 11:20 AM.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Summerfield, Florida Sturgis, SD (summers)
    Posts
    1,870
    That is exactly what I was thinking this morning...
    John Morgan
    The U.S. Army Band (Pershing's Own) 1971-1976
    Adams E3 Custom Series Euphonium, 1956 B&H Imperial Euphonium,
    1973 F. E. Olds & Son Studio Model T-31 Baritone
    Adams TB1 Tenor Trombone, Yamaha YBL-822G Bass Trombone
    Year Round Except Summer:
    Kingdom of the Sun (KOS) Concert Band, Ocala, FL (Euphonium)
    KOS Brass Quintet (Trombone, Euphonium)
    Summer Only:
    Rapid City Municipal Band, Rapid City, SD (Euphonium)
    Rapid City New Horizons Band (Euphonium)

  9. Golfer's lead tape in strategic points
    Thein's "patches"
    Cannonball's "semiprecious stones" on the trumpet leadpipe where it enters the valve block
    H. N. White King Master Model cornets with the "reinforcement" on the knuckle where the underslung lead pipe enters the valve block on the 3rd valve side
    Heavy valve caps, mouthpiece sleeves by Curry, valve casing sleeves by Wick and others (including the original: adding coins under the bottom valve caps)
    Different weight Neck screws/bolts and shims and resonance plates on Fender-style electric guitars and basses
    and others

    All of these appliances, including these LefreQue Plates, have, as the goal, to either couple the components together, or to damp undesireable resonances, or to change the "mechanical impedance" of the system of the entire instrument from mouthpiece rim to bell rim, to either even out response, to fix intonation issues through nodal/anti-nodal manipulation, or other items. (H N White [or more probably, Reynolds when he worked for H N White] used to take time to match detachable tuba and sousaphone bells to the bodies in like manner) For some players, for some instruments, for some mouthpiece/horn/player combinations, they work. For others, they don't.

    I have a trumpet that benefits from ten grams of extra weight on the 3rd valve cap. I used to have another trumpet where the machined valve caps were optimal, no more, no less. My King American bell-front bari/euph is as good as it can be the way it is. I put a ring of golfer's lead tape around the throat of my Kelly outdoor mouthpieces to stabilize them. On one of my bass guitars, I changed strings and tweaked the truss rod to change the tension on the neck to get rid of a "dead spot."

    The whole point of this digression: the LefreQue Plates may or may not work. There is no mojo, just physics, although the complexity of the physics of a musical instrument may make it difficult to quantify any anecdotal reported changes or benefits in response. But, hey, we spend $X,XXX.00 on instruments and several $XXX.00 on mouthpieces, cases, mutes, accessories, music, etc. If they are not that expensive, and a player is so inclined, why not try them?

    We need a [LIKE] button so I can agree with Snorlax' post above.
    Last edited by iiipopes; 05-26-2016 at 09:47 AM.

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    West Palm Beach, FL
    Posts
    3,853
    Great posts by "Snorlax" and "iiipopes"! Very interesting reading.

    I know that "iiipopes" knows about "golfer's lead tape". I still have an interesting post about iiipopes fixing the high B natural on his e̶u̶p̶h̶o̶n̶i̶u̶m̶ 3v Besson Tuba bookmarked from 10 years ago. It's on TubeNet. If interested, you can read Carroll's post here: (can't find the original post by iiipopes).

    Now I'm a Believer! - Warning, Hooey Alert
    Last edited by RickF; 05-26-2016 at 02:49 PM.
    Rick Floyd
    Miraphone 5050 - Warburton BJ / RF mpc
    YEP-641S (recently sold)
    Doug Elliott - 102 rim; I-cup; I-9 shank


    "Always play with a good tone, never louder than lovely, never softer than supported." - author unknown.
    Symphonic Band of the Palm Beaches
    El Cumbanchero (Raphael Hernandez, arr. Naohiro Iwai)
    Chorale and Shaker Dance
    (John Zdechlik)

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