Results 1 to 9 of 9

Thread: Stuck valve stems

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    NYC metro area
    Posts
    523

    Stuck valve stems

    Rainy day here in New York, and I gave my horn a bath. In disassembling it, I couldn't loosen the valve stems for the 1st and 3rd valves. The 2d valve came apart easily enough, and I was able to use a rubber gripper (the kind to loosen jar lids) to unscrew the stem for the 4th valve, but no luck on the 1st and 3rd. I know enough not to take a pliers to it. I would like to remove the stems so I can clean the valve guide thoroughly (reason: I've been using Hetman #1, and now I'm going to try Blue Juice to see if I like it better. I want to make sure to remove all residue of the Hetman).

    Can anyone offer advice? Thanks.
    Dean L. Surkin
    Mack Brass MACK-EU1150S, BB1 mouthpiece
    Bach 36B trombone; Bach 6.5AL and Faxx 7C mouthpieces (pBone on loan to granddaughter)
    Steinway 1902 Model A, restored by AC Pianocraft in 1988; Kawai MP8, Yamaha KX-76
    See my avatar: Jazz (the black cockapoo; RIP) and Delilah (the cavapoo) keep me company while practicing

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Deltona, Florida
    Posts
    25
    I'm sorry if this advice come in a little late by a few hours(4:30-7:30 EST), but this MIGHT help.

    In a repair shop, they have a specialty set a rounded smooth jaw pliars called swedging pliars (actually designed for use on woodwind key rods). The idea is that it is a very smooth surface that won't mar the brass. But they ALSO use a specialty penetrating oil provided by instrument repair supply firms, and then let it set for a few minutes. Valve oil is a good lube, but it isn't a penetrating oil. At home, the better of the following two choices might be a 3-in-1 household oil, or (shudder) WD-40. Now, I would never use EITHER of these without knowing that I would be dilligently scrubbing and cleaning the valves out after, but you were cleaning the horn anyway, right? With no access to smooth or soft jaw pliars, you might (carefully) try this trick after lubing the base of the stem (sparingly, but completely).
    Wrap a small piece of cloth around the top of the stem (one wrap should do, anymore and the stem will slip), and insert it into the chuck of your drill. You should be able to tighten down the chuck tight enough without leaving any marks, but go slowly to make sure. Also, gauge the depth of the thread section for your finger button, and chuck the drill down PAST that, to make sure you don't crush the stem. NO, you are NOT going to try to use the drill to unscrew the stem, but it gives you something to twist against with your aforementioned grip pad used on the valve itself.

    Several short twists, are better than one long grunting tug.

    When it comes free, make sure you clean ALL threaded areas, either with the fine tip of your mouthpiece brush, or even an old toothbrush, with firm bristles. Clean and rinse EVERTHING thouroughly. Use, the valve oil to relube the threads before reassembly.

    If this DOESN'T work, then consult a repair tech. You really can damage the valves permanently, if you are not careful. Use this method with extreme caution and patience, and of course, at your own risk.

    But I hope it helps...
    Last edited by jskline5; 05-31-2015 at 07:06 PM.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Central North Carolina
    Posts
    2,369
    For stubborn valve stems, I have two steps: (1) Apply PB Blaster to the base of the stem where it threads into the piston top. Let it sit. Let it sit for several days if you're so inclined. PB Blaster can pretty much free up anything that can be freed up. (2) Instead of trying to unscrew the stem from the piston, think "backwards" or "upside down". Unscrew the piston from the stem. The way to do this is to first remove the valve cap from the top of the stem (again, use PB Blaster if this is a problem). Then go to your vise and insert the rubber jaw pads (You DO have a vise and rubber jaw pads, right?). Then firmly clamp the valve stem in the padded jaws of the vise with the piston body pointing up above the vise. Then CAREFULLY grasp the piston (using a cloth or rubber fabric) and unscrew the piston from the stem. This works in cases where you'll never be able to unscrew the stem from the piston by holding things in your hands.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  4. #4
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Deltona, Florida
    Posts
    25
    Is it more common to have a vise with rubber jaw pads in your garage, or any type of household drill? Absolutely, the vise is even better than the drill chuck. Thanks Gary, for mentioning the concept of unscewing the valve from the stem, rather than unscrewing the stem from the valve. PB Blaster is good stuff, but requires the same dilligent cleanup afterwards. If you have a drill with teeth(grooves) on the chuck braces, this is why I mentioned the cloth. Leather would work better than cotton, but really, it is the penetrating oil doing most of the work here. The reason, a drill chuck is better than normal pliars because the pressure fit is exerted equally around the tube. The same as a soft block in a vise completely envelopes the tube between the jaws. Pliars squeeze from two sides only and crush before they grip. Many shops have a lathe that has smooth chuck braces, and they would probably use that over the vise. But in a few of my shops, we did use the vise with soft lead jaw blocks installed to firmly hold the stem without damage. After I got ahold of some swedging pliars, and the high end "corrosion cracker" penetrating oil, I never had a problem again. But where do you find "corrosion cracker" outside of a band instrument repair catalogue? You don't. But PB Blaster, or even WD-40 work on similar principles. It really is the chemicals doing more of the work over and above the brute force. That said, use any product with extreme care, and don't overdo it. These will have negative long term effects on your horn, if not cleaned up properly. I also might add using Palmalive or Dawn dish detergent (or something that really cuts grease) during cleanup. Also avoid Liquid Wrench as penetrating oil, that stuff is just too hard to clean up, and leaves a foul smell.
    Good Luck!
    Last edited by jskline5; 05-31-2015 at 08:31 PM.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    NYC metro area
    Posts
    523
    Thank you all for your advice. I wound up reassembling the horn last night without working further on those two valve stems. The horn is only one year old, so I'm sure I'll get it unstuck soon enough.
    Dean L. Surkin
    Mack Brass MACK-EU1150S, BB1 mouthpiece
    Bach 36B trombone; Bach 6.5AL and Faxx 7C mouthpieces (pBone on loan to granddaughter)
    Steinway 1902 Model A, restored by AC Pianocraft in 1988; Kawai MP8, Yamaha KX-76
    See my avatar: Jazz (the black cockapoo; RIP) and Delilah (the cavapoo) keep me company while practicing

  6. #6
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Deltona, Florida
    Posts
    25
    If the horn is only a year old, then you MIGHT actually have a different problem. You may really want to take it in to a repair tech. If the valve stems have been cross-threaded into the valves, no amount of lube will prevent damage already done to the threads, and then subsequently made worse by forcing the stem free.
    All hope is not lost, because damaged threads can be re-tapped, and restored to proper operating condition. But I would leave that to skilled hands with the exact proper tools...........
    Last edited by jskline5; 06-01-2015 at 10:43 AM.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Central North Carolina
    Posts
    2,369
    Quote Originally Posted by jskline5 View Post
    After I got ahold of some swedging pliars, and the high end "corrosion cracker" penetrating oil, I never had a problem again. But where do you find "corrosion cracker" outside of a band instrument repair catalogue? You don't. But PB Blaster, or even WD-40 work on similar principles.
    Not sure what you mean by high end corrosion cracker. What is fairly easy to get in a number of places are PB Blaster, Kroil, and Deep Creep (boating stores). I've never tried Kroil, and resorted to Deep Creep only when for a period PB Blaster became mysteriously unavailable in my area a couple of years ago. It's a very different chemical from WD-40 (and isn't really a "penetrating oil" at all, but then neither is WD-40). I've yet to encounter a problem with a bound fastener that PB Blaster couldn't relieve (from brass instruments through heavy machinery). From my perspective, if the PB Blaster doesn't work, the next step is a torch .

    I'll grant you that PB Blaster is irritatingly smelly and not very tasty, and so requires a bit more clean-up than some other things.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  8. #8
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Deltona, Florida
    Posts
    25
    Gary,
    I fully acknowledge that PB Blaster can get the job done. That said, it may be the smell and overall viscosity that add to its difficulty for clean-up, as to why it isn't the preferred choice for repairs shops. But then, what do I know, its use in repair shops may very well be more widespread than I think.

    So, your challenge made me get out my old (YES OLD) repair catalogues out and look up "corrosion cracker". The success rates with this product make me feel like it is probably still in widespread use today. While Corrosion Cracker has the look and feel of automotive transmission fluid, is seems to be partially or totally soluble in water, and that allows for an easier clean-up. (this is from my memory of my experience with it). It was applied sparingly, using a needle oiler, and any excess seemed to wipe up easily with a shop cloth. Also, it has the absence of those lingering odors, and it may be for this reason alone, that it was a preferred choice.

    In the band instrument repair world, there are 2 main choices for suppliers to the industry. One is Allied Supply, and the other is Ferree's. Neither do business with private individuals. Even though I have catalogues, I couldn't order anything now, if I wanted. Proof of business license and specific buying terms are required.

    However, I kept the catalogues for my own reference, even after leaving instrument repair in 2002 prior to the birth of my oldest son, (who incidently is the up and coming euphonium player in the family, now).

    From the 1996 (see, I told you it was old) Ferree's Catalogue, this is THEIR description:

    "Corrosion Cracker" Penetrating Oil
    Our Ferree's Corrosion Cracker penetrating oil is unbelievable. We put it on a cornet 1st valve slide that had been stuck for years. After allowing it to set overnight, the slide was REMOVED BY HAND, using no tools whatsoever. A recent scientific discovery reduces surface tension so that this amazing solvent creeps into openings as small as ONE MILLIONTH OF AN INCH. Some parts can be loosened immediately, others may require a little more time for the oil to work its way the full length. BUT...it will work!
    You can loosen valve and tuning slides, stuck or slow moving woodwind keys and stack rods, nuts, bolts, studs, screws, pulleys, shafts, bearings, pipe threads, guns, valve guides or any other corroded metal parts. You can lubricate air driven tools, remove rust, gummed oil and grease and even clean cement tools.


    You can take their advertising and sales pitch approach for what it is worth. But by far, it was the best stuff I ever used. I haven't had much problems with my own horns, since I have always been careful to lube threads, and clean up before storage. Also, any horn stored for any length of time, was always in a climate-controlled environment. I have always used WD-40 for general purpose household projects, and that is why it would be something handy and likely availible on hand for me. But I would buy PB Blaster if there was a good deal on it, LOL! Gary, with your strong recommendation, I think I probably WILL! Have a great day!
    Last edited by jskline5; 06-02-2015 at 02:11 PM.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Central North Carolina
    Posts
    2,369
    I thought you might have been referring to the Ferree's "product". But apparently it's widely believed that Ferree's "corrosion cracker" is just Kroil rebottled and sold as their house brand. See http://forum.saxontheweb.net/archive...p/t-93182.html, and http://www.probirt.com/forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=29. So if you like that stuff, you'll probably do well just to buy Kroil. Except that if you look at the price of the Ferree's stuff, it's WAY cheaper than the branded Kroil product.

    While Allied requires you to demonstrate that you are a genuine repair business (they have an extremely strong "guild" mentality that I'm not sure is entirely legal), Ferree's does not, and I BELIEVE that anyone can order from them. I know that Allied wouldn't open an account for me even though I demonstrated that I already had a Ferree's account, a Votaw account, etc., and insisted that the NAME of my company make it clear that it was an instrument repair business. Well, that was easy enough . Can we say "DBA"?

    I've ordered from Ferree's several times, but don't do it much because, honestly, they're quite old school in their entire approach, many of their tools that are available elsewhere are quite overpriced, and when possible I prefer to get tools and materials from places like Votaw, J. L. Smith, Dawkes, etc. But they do have things that are very hard to get, or impossible to get elsewhere.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •