Besson 3 valve compensating 1963

[dozerdan]

I just acquired (friend who is thrift / estate sale shopper found it) a Besson lacquered, curved detachable bell, 3 valve compensating euphonium.
Has the usual 50 Medals of Honor etc...
It came with what I assume to be the original Besson 10 medium shank mouthpiece.
Truly in amazing condition. No dents, only a few tiny lacquer scratches. All the slides and valves were free.
Interestingly, in the detachable bell one can see that under the lacquer the metal used to braze the bell together is a little lighter in shade than the sheet metal. It shows how the builder made the little tab cuts that some manufacturers use to align the sheet metal prior to brazing. Very cool
This is serial number 377xxx, meaning it should be a 1963 horn.
Even the case is pristine, the "fake alligator" material is entirely intact, clearly well used but none of the general battering a case usually gets. Clearly a smoker owned it, not just usual old case smell but leaping tobacco too. That will fade quickly.
Best part my friend got this for $100.00. Wow.

I love how it plays, I just must get to know its needs and variegates.
Will change the felts.
It is getting a good bath soon.

Several questions of the group.

1. Was there ever a "model" name/number used for this era Besson?

2. Do the bottom valve case caps unscrew? They are very close fitted and have not yet come off. I will let oil soak in a bit longer. I would expect them to be removable not soldered in place but want to ask before forcing them. Also very had to reach with your fingers.

3. The tacquets show some wear especially valve 1 as expected. There is no tendencies to bind and not too much noise but it looks like not a lot of engagement in the groove milled in the valve casing. Are these better addressed early or can I wait for more obvious signs to occur? The noise I mention is not the travel stop related sounds that the felts mitigate.

I did just order a DW SM4MX for this. Already one friend pushes a 51D. I am neither a ford or chevy person. I just want to horn to play well, the label is not important.

Cheers all.

Dan


PHOTOS ADDED

Here are the photos of this horn. Really great condition. Case also.

The main question was about the tacquets.

Also the valve case bottom caps being tight. I will try penetrating oil for a bit and hope to gt them off.
In the photos you can see the residual corrosion and gunk by the caps. Given they are so closely fit it was unclear if they were solder, I think not.

Does the "H" on Valve 2 mean anything?

The Besson logo has some polish in the text. NO I did not do that, I think the estate sales folk might have.
A little mottling of the lacquer in some areas.
The few areas with lacquer worn off are the left hand contact point on the valve loops.[ATTACH]undefined[/ATTACH]

[davewerden]

Congratulations to the new owner on the terrific buy! It sounds like a once-in-a-lifetime deal.

I think that Besson's compensating horns were always their pro models, which I think would mean it is either an Imperial or New Standard.

In my experience the bottom caps were never soldered in place. Keep working at it!

The tacquets are probably OK, but maybe you can include a photo showing how they look. Metal ones are not as thick as the plastic variety, so maybe that's why they look thin to you.

As far as any smell in the case, you might try some "dry" techniques before using any sprays or solutions. I wonder if you sprinkled some baking soda around inside and left it for a while, then vacuumed it out, if the smell might be better. There may be better products, too, but I have not had lots of experience with that. The horn itself can be de-scented by disassembling and giving the whole thing a good bath, which you probably should do anyway. Just don't use water that is hot. Some of the old lacquer jobs would soak right off in hot water.

[dozerdan]

The Besson has had a bath. Oh my.
Bits of green. Well quite a fair bit o bits. Me thinks it was getting ready for St Paddy's day.

The bottom valve caps took a bit of WD40 type to loosen and gentle tapping with soft dowel to come free.

[tampaworth]

She's a beauty, congratulations! You don't see that many with the bell front configuration and a time capsule horn to boot. Always exciting to see a classic get a new lease on life. Enjoy

[hsmhp]

Occasionally I play a 1963 Besson 4 valve that belonged to a dear friend who died a few years ago. The horn is well used (he played professionally years ago).

The valve guide for the third valve was pretty much worn down to a nub, but the horn still played fine.

[daruby]

The green stuff is normal, particularly since the horn had sat unused for a long time and probably not been cleaned (if ever). The horn looks beautiful. As regards the H on Valve 2, I would try playing the horn to insure it tunes properly to an A=440 and is not a high pitch instrument.

[dozerdan]

With the Besson 10 mouthpiece that came with it I have the main tuning slide out about 1/2 inch to center everything. With a DW SM4MU I have the slipe almost all the way closed.
I had wondered the same, thinking I remembered reading about the "H" meaning it was a 442 to 446 or there abouts. Of course since I am a newer euph player coming from Oboe, Sax and everything else it could signify "high" tuning and just be me making it look different.
Thanks.

[Euphearted]

The green stuff is normal, particularly since the horn had sat unused for a long time and probably not been cleaned (if ever). The horn looks beautiful. As regards the H on Valve 2, I would try playing the horn to insure it tunes properly to an A=440 and is not a high pitch instrument.

I second this. H on the second valve casing or leadpipe usually means high pitch. This being said, I have at least two horns which, the H notwithstanding, calibrate to low pitch. One of these is a mid-sixties New Standard. Check the horn against a tuner.

[Davidus1]

Beautiful instrument. Congrats on the great purchase!

[Pat]

And just a hundred bucks... I NEVER find deals like this!

[dozerdan]

Indeed.
I really first heard the Euphonium a few years ago to really be aware of its sounds.
In one of my concert bands, each spring concert we invite and bring out a member of The US Marine Band. A couple of years ago we had a Euphonium player come. He did Napoli with us. Truly great sound.
The player was Gunnery Sergeant Mark Jenkins. I would expect Dave probably knows him. In this concert I was playing Oboe but often play Bari sax and get to sit by the Euphoniums.
The link to Napoli we performed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOtv5mBvaeM

Every time the US Marine band members come play with us they are most gracious and humble professionals.
One time a flautist came with another member who was not in uniform. The not in uniform member asked for a any old sax and sat in for the entire rehearsal and concert just to play with no acknowledgement. Always great people.

[johan]

wow, what a splendid buy!!! This is an instrument you will surely enjoy very much!
@dozerdan: thx for the link, wonderfull solo!

[Pat]

Military bandsmen are stunningly talented. Every time I hear them play I'm in awe.

[dozerdan]

I had mentioned the tacquets were quite worn.
New brass tacquets were ordered from Dawkes in england they arrived to Seattle in less than a week. The Nylon type would need the tapped hole the tacquet screws into to be drilled and re-tapped to fit the nylons tacquets different thread pitch/diameter. Might look for the delrin ones later. Probably not though.

Very easy to remove and replace. Nothing was frozen or required any force
Only a small blunt nose flat jaw pliers was needed to remove the old ones and final adjust the new ones.
Just had to start unscrewing with the pliers then they easily came out with just my fingers.

Installed the new ones just as easily. Do not force them if they do not line up, better to back out the less than 1/2 turn neeeded.
Final fitting was simple with a diamond stone I use to sharpen my Oboe reed knife, very very fine grit. More of a hone than anything else.
I simply used a piece of paper, tape would work, to mask the valve body then I could slowly dress the tacquet while installed on the valve.
Removing the valves button and cap so only the shaft/rod is left is much better than working around them. Just takes 5 seconds literally.
Check fitting often and go slowly. Dress the edge of the tacquet to eliminate any burrs.

I also cleaned the groove in the case wall to remove any gunk that had accumulated that might bind/block a new tacquet. Plastic dental tool.
There should not be any dragging. Feel and listen. None of these had to had material removed on the side of the tacquet, each one still had a bit of rotational play but 1/4 that with the old ones.
Mostly removed material from the "surface" of the tacquet. Again remove material slowly and fit several times. Very little needed to be removed. Much quieter now.

In other threads Dave suggests this is NOT a do it yourself. Many folks are not comfortable adjusting their instruments. Playing Oboe, Sax, Clarinet I have at times stripped some to pieces over the years and will turn adjustment screws as needed. It is amazing what a 1/16th of a turn will to to solve or worsen an instrument's problem. There is one screw on my oboe you don't really turn, you just think at it with a bit of pressure and magically you can tell it plays differently for better or worse. There a magic spot for that one, ultra critical setting.
Oddly, the truth is once your horn is in good adjustment most do not change very fast. So once set up well and played frequently, my horns settle in and are very stable so there is no need to mess with them usually.
Diagnose any problem before starting to turn screws randomly. Understand how everything relates before starting. A Euphonium is not as simple as it looks.
If you are not a "wrench" person let the pros take care of it.
Work on adjusting the player, that usually fixes many problems.