Doubling/Triple on Instruments

[Daniel Agramonte]

I am a 15 year old Euphonium player with a slight problem-I love orchestral music way too much. The Euphonium is a beautiful instrument (I personally believe that it would work fabulously as an orchestral instrument. If I ever get some significant amount of money in my life I'm thinking about commissioning orchestral music with Euphonium in it) but there are no parts written for it in full orchestra (with a few major exceptions). My eventual solution was to begin to learn trumpet (I could never get used to a trombone slide, or should I bite the bullet?). But unfortunately I'm preparing audition pieces for GHP (governors honors program) and school is getting crazy; I've had no time to practice on the instrument. Anyways, my first question is this: I may not be be able to have time to practice the instrument until after college. If I put in the time necessary to get proficient on the trumpet, will it matter that I'm learning it at 22? Even at that age, could I still become proficient enough ,after years of practice, to join a major symphony orchestra ,but at an older age than normal? In addition, even if I practice on the trumpet a lot, would I be unable to overcome the barriers of high range, or would it be something I would need to practice disproportionally (compared to the average trumpet player)? How would this effect my skills on the Euphonium?

In addition, I also want to become more diversified as a Euphonium-family instrumentalist. Would learning the Alto/Tenor Horn and Baritone Horn be useful skills for a Euphonium player in America? If I did learn those instruments, how significant is the change in playing style (Baritone Horn and Alto Horn) and the change in mouthpiece (Alto Horn)? I know Bass Trumpet/Alto Trumpet is used in some orchestral works (Rite of Spring), how significant is the change in mouthpiece for these instruments (and would they be useful to learn)? And final question, if I did become proficient at Alto Horn at some point, would learning to play French Horn be easier than without that background, or are the mouthpieces too different? In any case, I'm happy to be a part of this great community and I can't wait to learn from those in it.

[Dubby]

From my perspective, learning a new instrument is always beneficial if you go about it the right way. I've played trumpet, trombone, French horn, euphonium, baritone, and tuba for a bit each, and I think playing each one has given me a new idea on how to approach the others. However, I am nowhere near the level of a professional. My main instrument currently is tuba as that is the need of my college. I love it and this is my first year. For mouthpiece, if you can find a comfortable rim on each instrument you should be fine. If possible, a modular set up through someone like Mr. Elliot would be perfect for groups of instruments like baritone, euphonium, bass trumpet as you could stick to a single size rim. Otherwise, practice is key. Regarding alto horn and French horn, I have no idea. Sorry. I think you've set some high goals for yourself, but if you go for it, you'll come out better than before whether you make it in a professional setting or not. Personally, I learned trombone for playing in my high school orchestra and jazz band but if
I could do it again, I would start on tuba earlier.

[ghmerrill]

I'll start out by largely ignoring what you've said after your first couple of sentences. It's all over the place, very enthusiastic, I understand exactly where you're coming from with it, but it's a diversion from your original question and "problem statement" which is "I like orchestral music, but I can't use a euphonium for that. At this point in my life, what should I do about it?" My answer to that is simple: Get a large bore tenor trombone with an F attachment, like this: http://www.mackbrass.com/MACK-TB810L.php. And have a good time.

You WILL get used to the slide, and you'll learn a lot in doing that (both about the music you're playing and about tuning and intonation). The instrument will be easy for you to move to quickly because it isolates the differences into, basically, just the slide rather than valves. Reading the music will be the same (I assume you read bass clef, but if not, that's easy to fix ), the mouthpiece will be pretty much the same (in fact, it can be identical), the range is pretty much the same, etc. And it's a VERY versatile instrument. You can start off immediately by playing 2nd trombone parts (yuck) or 3rd (yea!). It puts you right into the orchestra (or dance band, or dixieland band, or jazz band) immediately. Just start doing scales and arpeggios, and in a couple of weeks you'll be fine.

I'm facing the same kind of decision now myself (which you'll see in a different thread I posted just yesterday). I used to have a big Holton TR181 double-valve bass trombone, but sold it some years ago because I wasn't using it much and thought I'd be better off concentrating on valved instruments rather than splitting time with the slide and the valves. But I love a trombone and now I think I need to get another. It will be either another bass (probably Chinese, for cost purposes, but some of them are excellent), or the Mack Brass horn I mentioned above. Just need to sort out my own real goals and what is likely to be best for me.

The rest of your posting (if you look at it) expresses a lot of concerns that will simply disappear if you go the trombone route. Think about that.

[davewerden]

I, too, vote for the trombone route. Granted learning the slide is a challenge, but I taught myself in high school with no serious problems. Playing a trombone may help focus your intonation. And the biggest advantage is that you are building your euphonium chops and trombone chops more-or-less simultaneously. Granted there is a different in air flow with trombone and euphonium, but that difference is arguably much, much less than the differences in air flow with euphonium and trumpet.

You could also learn tuba. It's actually quite compatible with euphonium.

Learning either of those low-brass orchestral instruments, and playing within an orchestra, may help you understand the textures of the low brass in orchestra.

You might start trying to gather the existing parts for euphonium within orchestra. As your skills mature you can try to network with orchestra folks and get on their list of players for euphonium. Currently there are 86 such pieces in the Euphonium Music Guide, and I suspect the actual number is greater. If you page through the listings you'll see that the living composer Aho has done many symphonies that have euphonium parts, some of which are quite challenging!

http://www.dwerden.com/emg/musicsear...tra&doSearch=1

[ghmerrill]

And here's some additional insight from someone with substantial authority and experience from the trombone side: http://www.yeodoug.com/resources/faq.../doubling.html.

(You should probably put off any thought of doubling on serpent for some time.)

[Daniel Agramonte]

Hey everybody thank you for your helpful commentary! I think I see now that it is impractical to learn trumpet, or at least it's more practical for me to learn trombone. As for tuba, I don't know of I'm very well suited for the instrument, I tried to play a friends tuba and I couldn't even get a sound out of the instrument. But nevertheless it would definitely be fun to experiment with the instrument in later years. What about the other instruments I mentioned, is there any use in learning those?

[davewerden]

What about the other instruments I mentioned, is there any use in learning those?

In my opinion, no, unless you have a desire to play one of them in an ensemble or solo.

Interesting that you had trouble getting a sound on tuba. It IS different for sure, but I never had trouble getting at least some sound, even when I first picked one up (techniques class in college). To tell you the truth, when I first got my Eb tuba for practice only, and my primary goal was to help build my breath support. It was later that I developed the goal of playing solo/ensemble. And later still I discovered that playing tuba actually seems to help my euphonium chops, although I can't be sure why that is.

[ghmerrill]

Your life is likely to be very long. There is plenty of time for learning ALL those instruments, if you wish. But FIRST, learn one or two instruments REALLY well. I started on saxophone in 6th grade (well-trained in school and by private instructors), picked up flute as a double in college (self-taught), stopped playing for many years, and then picked up tuba and bass trombone (self-taught) in my mid-40s. There is time. Focus first, and branch out later. Become a muscian, and not just somebody who can get sounds out of a bunch of different instruments.

Concerning the tuba, you should easily be able to play one. In fact, given that you play euphonium, you should be able to sit down with a BBb tuba and be able to play it passably in band in probably a week. The fingerings are pretty much the same (some minor differences in different octaves because of where the partials lie since the instruments are an octave apart). Of course, we don't know what kind of "tuba" you tried or what mouthpiece you used. If it was a sousaphone or you used a mouthpiece that is too large (many players do, and are often provided with poor mouthpiece choices by instructors who aren't tuba players), that might explain it. Or if the tuba is leaky or otherwise in wonky shape, that might explain it. But you definitely should be able to play it in the euphonium range without difficulty.

On the other hand, I don't really consider the tuba to be a true "orchestral instrument". So I don't think that right now it would provide you with what you're looking for.

[bbocaner]

I started trombone when I was 15 and ended up majoring in trombone when I was in college. It's a major undertaking to get good at it. Not only do you need to figure out the slide technique, but the whole air and articulation thing is very different. I do feel like playing multiple instruments is like cross-training, and it will help your euphonium playing, but if your goal is an orchestra job you need to really set aside the euphonium for a while and concentrate on trombone.

Tuba is not a bad suggestion either.

[Msan1313]

I agree with Mr Bocaner, doubling is one thing, but if you want to become serious into orchestral music you need to focus on trombone. Playing trombone versus playing euphonium needs the same mouthpiece, but the airstream, articulations, and airflow will change. It took me weeks just to become half decent at legato tounging, and after 6 or so months of playing trombone as a double instrument, I still haven't locked in all the positions. So if you're serious about learning it, pick it up and focus on it everyday.

[tampaworth]

On the other hand, I don't really consider the tuba to be a true "orchestral instrument"

One of the reasons I ventured over to the dark side of Tuba was to be able to participate in the beauty of orchestral music. Leading the orchestra this series from the bottom up on Finlandia makes it all worthwhile. Considering the inevitable downtime, playing with an orchestra may not be the way to build chops but building them elsewhere in other ways allows you to enter the orchestral experience ready to make a sizeable contribution when called upon. For you, I second the idea of embracing the slide!

[BDeisinger]

Personally I feel that learning the trombone is the way to go, especially at your age. I played Euphonium in HS switching from cornet and then majored on Euphonium in college with 2 semesters or was it 1? on trombone. (It was a Mt. Vernon Bach belonging to a frat brother) After all these many years reaching retirement I decided to play in the church ensemble and ended up playing trombone parts on the Euphonium. Decided to look for a used bone and bought a 1977 Bach 42 with F Attachment. When joining community bands, there were more euphoniums then needed so I ended up on the trombone. Not only that but 1st in the one band. The 42 was ok but presented problems on ease of playing etc. To make a long story short, bought a B&S tenor with F attachment and now looking for a bass bone for the other band and stage band. That's why I'm selling off my old euphoniums to make way for the trombone. Still playing euphonium at church with the trio Conn 88H, Euphonium and Tuba. Man what a blend of sound. Just trying to relate my experience to your selection.

[paulmaybery]

Being primarily a tubaist, (and a serious euphonium doubler) I would advocate for that instrument. The larger mouthpiece, necessitates a somewhat different embouchure, in that there will be considerable muscle tissue that has not yet been employed as when playing euph. For lack of a better description, that "doughnut" of tissue is now being strengthened and will provide a good solid foundation on which to rest the euph mp.

Playing on the tuba, with a much broader air stream may also help open the throat and contribute to more depth of sound on the euph. I notice that after playing tuba, I have a relatively huge capacity for filling the euph and playing nice long phrases. As Dave mentioned, it is good for building the wind. My challenge is to not overblow and to focus the wind on making an appropriate sound (feeding the buzz) over an intelligent phrase structure. It is nice to be stronger than the task at hand.

Success in this area all depends of course, if you are approaching the tuba with a proper understanding of its breathing concepts, the buzz and keeping the throat and oral cavity open. Playing tuba is a 'concept' in which many aspects are not as simple as they appear.
It is more than just an octave below the euph. In general, with regard to the wind, think 'Slower' and 'Bigger' and anticipate every note you play.

But I also love the bass trombone and it is the 'logical double' these days for the tuba (It used to be the acoustic double bass)
The tuba shares the same problem with the euphonium in that there are few serious gigs outside of the band. Though the tuba does have a fair amount of material in the orchestra, dixieland and quintet.

But remember when you are working with instruments of different size mouthpieces, try not to neglect your principal instrument.
There is really no damage to occur, but one embouchure may take over as dominant and the other not seem as familiar as it used to.

So for building chops, I vote for the tuba. For learning a double that will offer more gigs, certainly the bass trombone.
If you have the time and resources, eventually do them all. I do, and I love it. Heck, this past year I even got myself a Cimbasso (valved contrabass trombone) Now there is one ax that is hard to find groups in which to play. But it is fun for 'cross training.'

[ghmerrill]

If I had the money right now, I'd definitely buy a Cimbasso (preferably in Eb). I've actually thought of making one, but even getting the parts together is pretty expensive unless you take a really long-term view and get lucky on Tubnet and Ebay. And the Chinese ones are still a bit pricey unless you buy direct from a Chinese distributor, handle all the import stuff, and take the chance on getting one that's damaged or poorly fabricated. Still .... very tempting.

If I had one, I figure I'd just show up in community band and play the bass trombone parts with it.

If only I could find a cheap 9.5" or larger bass trombone bell, ......... I'm thinking that building an Eb Cimbasso with five valves (three on right hand and two on left) would just be insufferably cool.

[Pat]

I think that tuba makes my euphonium playing better, and euphonium makes my tuba playing better... as long as I devote enough practice time to both!